5.0TA with 2015 F150 2.7L 5.5ft bed - Page 2 - Escape Trailer Owners Community

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Old 12-15-2015, 07:03 AM   #11
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I agree Carl. My point was, to use a standard install kit that uses the 2015/16 F150's preexisting mounting holes in the frame, the kingpin center ends up 2" ahead of the axle. No idea if that is an issue on the really short bed trucks. Couldn't tell about the Reese as they don't list brackets for the F150 and as such they have no install manual for the F150 to look at.

Guess if you find someone to do custom frame brackets, like Reace did on his short bed, then anything may be possible.
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Old 12-15-2015, 08:55 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemsonFan View Post
Jim,
A clear bed is a plus. I may wish I had one when loading grandma's dresser, etc. But, I mostly haul tool boxes and will save a few pounds and a few bucks and go with the rail version.

I just went to Andersen's website (for the umpteenth time) and for the first time have noticed dimensioned drawings of both rail and gooseneck versions. http://www.andersenhitches.com/uploa...Mar%202015.pdf
It appears the gooseneck version will place the kingpin 9.5" toward the tailgate from the gooseneck ball. (9.5" = 4" offset due to kingpin adapter + 5.5" offset due to pyramid-shaped frame) 9.5" is some serious help for short bed pickups. Do you expect that offset to affect towing dynamics?

Does anyone know if rails and rail brackets are designed such that the front and rear rails are equidistant from the rear axle? In other words, if a load is centered on the rails is it also centered over the axle?
With my gooseneck mount Anderson Ultimate there is lots of flexibility. The kingpin adapter can be tuned either way with the 4" offset, and the hitch itself can be turned either way for a 4.5" offset. I have the 6.5' box, and will keep the kingpin positioned as far forward as possible while maintaining clearances. Not only this, but I can get offset gooseneck balls. I know there is a 4" one, but not sure there are other sizes. Until I actually get the trailer the exact setup is just speculative.

With the ball on the rail mount hitch having a 5" offset from the center of the rails, you too will have lots of flexibility, and should have no trouble finding the setup that works best for you.

With my B&W Turnover Ball, not sure what the offset is from the axle center, but I remember it appears to be about 1" forward. Maybe a bit more, but not much if it is. Most rails are similar, just moderately ahead of the axle.
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Old 12-15-2015, 09:11 AM   #13
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Tatum,

I have exactly the same plan for towing my 5.0TA (Sept, 2016). Reace says that we need 30" of cab-to-trailer clearance on the F150. I took a quick measurement at the Ford dealer and eyeballed around 29" from the back of the cab to the center of the rear axle on the Super Crew.

As I understand it, the Anderson hitch ball on the "pyramid" is offset to provide a couple of inches of additional clearance, if needed. In addition, the adapter mounted on the trailer can also be mounted backwards to provide a couple more inches.

So, it looks good on paper. Let me know your results.

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David (Scout)
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Old 12-15-2015, 02:00 PM   #14
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Sidewinder
Quote:
Originally Posted by padlin View Post
The only hitch manufacturer I could find that currently lists an installation kit for the 2015/16 F150 short bed is Curt, Reese says only use it with a Sidewinder pinbox.
The Sidewinder is Reese's pivoting pin box extension, used to provide more clearance to the cab. They are taking an opportunity to sell this product; Curt does not offer a comparable product.

Carl has explained this well:
Quote:
Originally Posted by C&G in FL View Post
Reese only says that because they, like all 5th wheel hitch manufacturers assume that the hitch will be used to tow a wide, behemoth of a 5th wheel. Given the fact that small fiberglass 5th wheel trailers are less than 1/10 of 1% of the 5th wheels in use, would you expect anything else? Note that 5th wheel hitches are "always" installed in front of the rear axle to prevent massive pin weights from turning the truck into a lever (fulcrum at rear axle) and lifting the front axle to a pount where traction/stability is lost. This is another "must" that really doesn't apply to a FG 5th wheel with a 700/800 pound pin weight. You could install the hitch a foot behind the axle and not create a potential traction problem.
Reese bracket kits
Quote:
Originally Posted by padlin View Post
I agree Carl. My point was, to use a standard install kit that uses the 2015/16 F150's preexisting mounting holes in the frame, the kingpin center ends up 2" ahead of the axle.
...
Couldn't tell about the Reese as they don't list brackets for the F150 and as such they have no install manual for the F150 to look at.
Reese does have brackets for the current F-150 - of two different styles - and publish installation manuals for them, as I already posted:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
For the F-150, Reese offers two styles of rail and two corresponding mounting kits (N50086 and N56013). Neither is very far ahead of the axle; N56013 is one inch ahead of the axle.
Curt bracket kit
Quote:
Originally Posted by padlin View Post
The Curt shows the King Pin being 2.006" in front of the rear axle...

https://www.curtmfg.com/masterlibrar..._16442_INS.PDF
Yes, that's the one which I posted yesterday:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
The Curt bracket kit is their part 16442, and the installation instructions says their rail/hitch centre is 2 inches ahead of the axle line.
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Old 12-15-2015, 02:04 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bennett View Post
With my B&W Turnover Ball, not sure what the offset is from the axle center, but I remember it appears to be about 1" forward. Maybe a bit more, but not much if it is. Most rails are similar, just moderately ahead of the axle.
I agree that most ready-made setups are similarly positioned.

Anyone who already has their F-150 - even if they haven't installed an in-box hitch yet - can measure to see where the ball ends up:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
The B&W Turnover Ball underfloor-mount ball hitch GNRK1115 installation instructions say that the ball centre ends up 42-5/8" ahead of the rear edge of the box... which sounds likely to be ahead of the axle line, but that's just a guess based on the axle being in the middle of the 2-metre (6.5') box, and the axle being the same distance from the rear edge of either 5.5' or 6.5' box.
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Old 12-15-2015, 02:37 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bennett View Post
With my gooseneck mount Anderson Ultimate there is lots of flexibility. The kingpin adapter can be tuned either way with the 4" offset, and the hitch itself can be turned either way for a 4.5" offset. I have the 6.5' box, and will keep the kingpin positioned as far forward as possible while maintaining clearances. Not only this, but I can get offset gooseneck balls. I know there is a 4" one, but not sure there are other sizes.
That's B&W's 4" Extender

Any offset ball puts a lot of torque on the socket when there is any lateral force on the trailer (such as during cornering). I wouldn't consider more offset than explicitly approved by the hitch manufacturer.

Some fifth-wheel hitches also offer offset options.
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Old 12-15-2015, 11:34 PM   #17
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WOW! Great information!! MANY, MANY thanks!
I'll have to look at the references and digest all this. Right now, my work is interfering with my life!!
A quick look tells me the Andersen Ultimate Rail version is sufficiently configurable to do the job in my 5.5ft bed. But, as I'm prone to do, I'll investigate this new info, ask some more questions, make a decision, and let those who are interested know how it turns out.

Carl asked why I was "concerned about weight" given I'm using an F150, Supercrew, 5.5 ft bed. To be clear, I am weight "conscious" much more than "concerned". I'm conscious of weight from a payload (not a towing) standpoint. A loaded 5.0TA has a hitch weight of about 750 lbs. Add to that passengers (four) and cargo and 5th wheel hitch/rails weight, . . . and I can easily exceed the payload rating on the sticker inside my driver's door.

But, I'm not worried. I will load cargo in the trailer (as opposed to the truck) whenever practical. I will be mindful of how I distribute weight in the trailer. I will actually measure the hitch (king pin?) weight. And, if I use the Andersen hitch, I will take advantage of the small reduction in king pin weight afforded by the offset of the king pin coupler (as Brian B-P pointed out).
I also gain some comfort believing that Alf, and others like him, are pushing the boundaries much harder than I will! I'm impressed.

By the way, this little twin turbo (2.7L) is a quick, powerful, and torquey rascal! Plus, I got 29.9 mpg! on a 100 mile trip albeit at 60-65 mph. And, it has a 38 gal tank!

Got to run. I'll be back with some additional questions once I've digested this info and work hours return to normal!
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Old 12-16-2015, 01:42 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemsonFan View Post
Carl asked why I was "concerned about weight" given I'm using an F150, Supercrew, 5.5 ft bed. To be clear, I am weight "conscious" much more than "concerned". I'm conscious of weight from a payload (not a towing) standpoint. A loaded 5.0TA has a hitch weight of about 750 lbs. Add to that passengers (four) and cargo and 5th wheel hitch/rails weight, . . . and I can easily exceed the payload rating on the sticker inside my driver's door.
This makes sense to me. The payload of an F-150 - even specifically a SuperCrew 5.5' F-150 - can vary quite a bit depending on equipment choices. This has come up in discussion here before...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbryan4 View Post
We have the 6250 payload package but we had to add the integrated brake controller. Apparently it's only included in the max tow package bundle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
That's the lower of the two payload packages for the 145" SuperCrew (6250 lb GVWR 4x2 / 6500 lb GVWR 4x4; 1640 lb payload). The "2.7L EcoBoost® V6 Payload Package" increases GVWR by 400 lb and payload by 420 lb (apparently the higher-capacity hardware weighs 80 pounds more); I didn't realize that you don't have that, but it shouldn't be needed for an Escape 21' (but I would get it for a 5.0TA).
What's your payload? 1640 pounds? 2060 pounds?
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Old 12-19-2015, 09:25 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
This makes sense to me. The payload of an F-150 - even specifically a SuperCrew 5.5' F-150 - can vary quite a bit depending on equipment choices. This has come up in discussion here before...

What's your payload? 1640 pounds? 2060 pounds?
My payload is 1413 lbs. I have the 36 gal fuel tank which has likely reduced my payload by 80 lb. Anyway, it is what it is.

Carl and "hippo" added a device by Roadmaster Active Suspension that reportedly helps with control but not (I think) payload capacity.
Roadmaster Active Suspension Kits | Helper Springs | Overload Springs
This device seems like a prudent addition to my truck, too.

Thoughts or experience anyone?
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Old 12-19-2015, 03:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemsonFan View Post
My payload is 1413 lbs. I have the 36 gal fuel tank which has likely reduced my payload by 80 lb. Anyway, it is what it is.
Okay, no payload package in that truck... and some options that cut into available payload. It's still better than many "full size" pickups, and you're paying attention to loading so it seems to me that it will work out fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemsonFan View Post
Carl and "hippo" added a device by Roadmaster Active Suspension that reportedly helps with control but not (I think) payload capacity.
Roadmaster Active Suspension Kits | Helper Springs | Overload Springs
This device seems like a prudent addition to my truck, too.

Thoughts or experience anyone?
Any addition to springs may improve control and/or maintain a more desirable attitude (tail not so far down). Without a way to know exactly what limits the payload in Ford's calculations, you cannot count on a spring addition to increase it. This is the same for the air bags that some of us have added inside coil springs - they provide an improvement in suspension behaviour, and may thus increase the size of trailer that we are comfortable towing, but they don't change the rear axle weight rating or the payload.

The Roadmaster product makes sense to me, but it is nothing like the magic which they claim. They call it an "active" suspension, but they place the word "active" in quotation marks when they do, which looks like a way to claim that they didn't really call it "active". This makes sense, because it is absolutely not in any way an active suspension system. They also claim that it does not make the ride stiffer - that's completely bogus, because it is an additional spring in parallel to the existing spring, and thus does increase the spring rate. That increase might be entirely appropriate, and the result may be quite desirable... but the result is a stiffer suspension.

Like some other designs this adds spring stiffness without increasing damping; that's normally a recipe for an under-damped system and excessive oscillation, but that might just mean that it makes sense to not let the shock absorbers get too worn out before replacing them, and to use "heavy duty" shocks when you do replace them.

This line is particularly ridiculous:
Quote:
Like powerful muscles, RAS captures the arch of the leafs thereby transforming a load resisting system into a load absorbing one.
I won't even bother breaking down multiple flaws in this. They're add-on springs, and they're mounted in a way which may reduce axle wrap (which isn't likely a problem which needs fixing). Unlike add-on air springs, they can't leak and don't need an air supply... but they're also not adjustable to the load. That's all fine - just don't expect the magic that the website claims.
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