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Old 11-30-2019, 06:22 PM   #1
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BetterWeigh

A new way to determine your trailer weights, payload and most importantly, which brake controller setting do you need....https://www.curtmfg.com/betterweigh
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Old 11-30-2019, 06:37 PM   #2
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Wow. A game changer——if it works as advertised


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Old 11-30-2019, 07:23 PM   #3
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It's an amusing thing, which essentially guesses at the likely trailer weight, based on how hard the truck has to work to accelerate the trailer. The tongue weight guess is even more indirect, inferred from how much the vehicle squats... completely hopeless with a self-leveling suspension.

It might be a useful brake gain tuner, depending on how well they have designed the software.
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Old 11-30-2019, 08:02 PM   #4
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There is something in that article about set up with leveling turned off to do the initial calibration. Maybe it can disable the ignition if unsafe parameters are detected.

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Old 11-30-2019, 10:03 PM   #5
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While I don't plan on being the first to buy and try I would definitely be interested in hearing from the first to buy how it all went. Maybe I would then be the second to buy, if it works as promised. Modern technology can often prove to be as good as promised so here's hoping.
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:09 PM   #6
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I'm just going to put my hitch pin under my pillow.
Actually, there must be some here who have Ford's backing assist. How's that working?
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:22 AM   #7
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moved posts from other thread...
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:25 AM   #8
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If in the real world it’s within 5% as the FAQ states I’d consider it.
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:26 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaglo View Post
I'm just going to put my hitch pin under my pillow.
Actually, there must be some here who have Ford's backing assist. How's that working?


With my 19 it worked great! I really liked it. Now that I have a 5.0 I’m waiting for the software update.
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:33 AM   #10
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Competitor , https://www.haulgauge.com/
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Old 12-01-2019, 09:58 AM   #11
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Can't comment on tongue weight but measuring overall weight that way is a perfectly good way to do it, F = m*a so the force to accelerate with a given mass is a very direct way to determine mass. Modern computers in trucks can surely determine force with great accuracy.Ideally the measurement would be made once the rig is rolling (say going from 10 mph to 30 mph) vs from stopped when friction would be a bigger factor. A few things could make it less accurate- such as amount of air in the tires or road conditions but +/- 5% wouldn't be bad at all. And that just makes it a more realistic weight- how hard does your vehicle really have to work to tow it?

I would think AWD vehicles would have a head up on tongue weight as the computer would be able to tell how much more work the back wheels were doing but just guessing there.
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Old 12-01-2019, 10:06 AM   #12
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Titles and signs

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Originally Posted by rubicon327 View Post
You should use the other title. “Coming tomorrow” is useless as this thread gets older and won’t be found easily in future searches.
Reminds me of the old drinking establishment sign “Free beer Tomorrow.” When I was yute, the city library had a bookmobile. The librarian was also a censor of sorts. She decided if a book was appropriate and comprehendable for patrons. Especially dummies like me. She would not let me check out “Today is Yesterday’s Tomorrow” though the title intrigued me. The other one I always wanted was “ The Butcher, the Baker, The Murder Maker.” Instead I was relegated to “Traplines North” and E T Seton’s “ Animal tracks I have known” and the die was cast.
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Old 12-01-2019, 11:53 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbie54 View Post
Can't comment on tongue weight but measuring overall weight that way is a perfectly good way to do it, F = m*a so the force to accelerate with a given mass is a very direct way to determine mass. Modern computers in trucks can surely determine force with great accuracy.Ideally the measurement would be made once the rig is rolling (say going from 10 mph to 30 mph) vs from stopped when friction would be a bigger factor. A few things could make it less accurate- such as amount of air in the tires or road conditions but +/- 5% wouldn't be bad at all. And that just makes it a more realistic weight- how hard does your vehicle really have to work to tow it?

I would think AWD vehicles would have a head up on tongue weight as the computer would be able to tell how much more work the back wheels were doing but just guessing there.
You would also need the measurement to be taken at a slow speed because of frontal area and drag. The larger your trailer and therefore the frontal area, you will have more drag. Since drag increases as the square of velocity the faster you go you will see an exponential increase in drag and more force at your hitch. If the gauge is using the force required to move the mass of the TV/trailer plus the drag loads it will not read a constant number as velocity changes. Therefore weight measurements will have to be done at low speeds to minimize the effects of drag.

This is the reason tow vehicles have a maximum frontal area rating.
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Old 12-01-2019, 12:46 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbie54 View Post
Can't comment on tongue weight but measuring overall weight that way is a perfectly good way to do it, F = m*a so the force to accelerate with a given mass is a very direct way to determine mass.
It would be, if the only force acting on the trailer were the pulling force on the hitch ball, which is not true... and if the force were available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbie54 View Post
Modern computers in trucks can surely determine force with great accuracy.
How? The device is not getting a force value from one of the truck's computers; it is deriving it from other data.

The problem is not the ability of the computer, it is the lack of good data on which to base a calculation. The product web page says that the calculation is based on how much the torque converter slips, which means it is implying torque: that would require a calibration database of every transmission in every vehicle, and to make that into force would require the transmission and final drive ratio and tire rolling radius of every vehicle variant, which it absolutely does not have.

If the description is incorrect and the device is actually querying the vehicle for a current power output... does anyone think that is actually available, for every vehicle, in a form that this device can find and use? Other OBD monitoring devices can't even read the transmission temperature for any but the most common vehicles; it's on the OBD bus, but the aftermarket device manufacturers don't have the needed documentation from the vehicle's manufacturer and can't afford the effort to "reverse-engineer" the bus traffic to find it for vehicles that only have a million examples on the road.

It's a wild guess. They claim 5% accuracy, but with nothing to back up the claim I'll put that in the same category as the magic magnet that you clamp on your fuel line to produce a 50% decrease in fuel consumption. For the one specific model of pickup that they used for development, with one specific combination of transmission, final drive ratio, and tires, in ideal conditions, I wouldn't be surprised if they meet their target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbie54 View Post
I would think AWD vehicles would have a head up on tongue weight as the computer would be able to tell how much more work the back wheels were doing but just guessing there.
AWD doesn't work that way. The AWD system can distribute drive force between front and rear in any ratio, completely unrelated to the load on the tires, up to the point that the tires slip. Most modern AWD systems put all of the drive power into only one axle (either front or rear depending on what 2WD system the AWD system was based on) most of the time, but that doesn't mean that the other axle is floating in the air with no load. AWD systems with a centre differential supply a constant ratio of torque to front and rear (usually 50:50 but not necessarily) and may vary it with clutches or gear drag (in the worm gear type) or even brake action as required to limit wheelspin or change handling.
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Old 12-01-2019, 06:32 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
How? The device is not getting a force value from one of the truck's computers; it is deriving it from other data.

The problem is not the ability of the computer, it is the lack of good data on which to base a calculation. The product web page says that the calculation is based on how much the torque converter slips, which means it is implying torque: that would require a calibration database of every transmission in every vehicle, and to make that into force would require the transmission and final drive ratio and tire rolling radius of every vehicle variant, which it absolutely does not have.
I watched the Haulgauge video that Jumboscott linked to above. At about 11:00 mins in, it shows the manual calibrations needed if the vehicle isn't in their database. Add a known weight to the tailgate to calibrate the pitch sensor for the tongue weight . To make the trailer weight calculations, the gvw of the vehicle has to be entered into the app and then the vehicle has to be accelerated empty to get baseline acceleration.

I'm speculating, but it looks to me like the operational principle they're using (claiming?) is that for a given transmission, Force vs Torque Converter Slip has a predicable relationship. If so then you could, for instance, measure the unloaded acceleration at 50% slip (calibration), and then measure the loaded acceleration at 50% slip. If the force is the same at 50% slip regardless of loading, then you can calculate the mass of the trailer: mass_trailer = mass_truck*(accel_unloaded_50%slip/accel_loaded_50%slip-1).

Seems like what would be needed in the database per vehicle are suspension spring rates, gvw, and model of transmission with Force vs Slip characterized for each transmission.
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Old 12-05-2019, 09:39 AM   #16
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Amazon now lists the Better Weigh at $106.74 and shows it as not yet available.

My daughter wants something to give me for Christmas, and think I'll try this.

The gain on my brake controller needs to be reduced, and I have several measurements for the truck, trailer, and tongue weight.

I'll try this, see if the results are reasonable, and decide whether to keep or return.

https://www.amazon.com/CURT-51701-Be...5555519&sr=8-1
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Old 12-05-2019, 09:44 AM   #17
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great news, I am interested also, depending on your review.
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Old 12-05-2019, 10:25 AM   #18
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We are going down to Fort Pickens Campground on Jan 5 so I'll plan on a trial that day.

I'll check the tongue weight before we leave and stop at a CAT scale on the way.

Might leave a day early and check out a Harvest Hosts site to see what we think.
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Old 12-05-2019, 02:26 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micheal K View Post
I watched the Haulgauge video that Jumboscott linked to above. At about 11:00 mins in, it shows the manual calibrations needed if the vehicle isn't in their database. Add a known weight to the tailgate to calibrate the pitch sensor for the tongue weight . To make the trailer weight calculations, the gvw of the vehicle has to be entered into the app and then the vehicle has to be accelerated empty to get baseline acceleration.

I'm speculating, but it looks to me like the operational principle they're using (claiming?) is that for a given transmission, Force vs Torque Converter Slip has a predicable relationship. If so then you could, for instance, measure the unloaded acceleration at 50% slip (calibration), and then measure the loaded acceleration at 50% slip. If the force is the same at 50% slip regardless of loading, then you can calculate the mass of the trailer: mass_trailer = mass_truck*(accel_unloaded_50%slip/accel_loaded_50%slip-1).

Seems like what would be needed in the database per vehicle are suspension spring rates, gvw, and model of transmission with Force vs Slip characterized for each transmission.
One would have to be a trusting soul to accept any output from a gadget like that. Wouldn't work for me in any case. Too much aftermarket Banks Power equipment.
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Old 12-06-2019, 08:13 AM   #20
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Delayed Delivery

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We are going down to Fort Pickens Campground on Jan 5 so I'll plan on a trial that day.
Yesterday Amazon listed the Better Weigh as not yet available. Today it's "Usually ships within 1 to 3 months."

My delivery date is listed as Jan 17 to Feb 28,
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