Colorado\Canyon Towing 21

[Rockseaker]

Originally Posted by 10Canyon53

I have a question on using the older generation GMC Canyon as a tow vehicle. I own a 2010 GMC Canyon Z71 4X4 crew cab with the optional 5.3L V8 (pic below). It is rated to tow 5,000 lb. with the factory hitch and 6,000 lb. with a weight distributing hitch. I have been looking for a small 5th wheel camper to pull with it and discovered the 5.0TA a couple of days ago. What issues am I likely going to run into with this potential setup?

Nice looking Colorado, near identical to the 2011 I traded this morning. I have a 5.0 TA on order and really wanted to go with the 5' Colorado/Canyon but the more I thought about putting the 5th wheel hitch behind the axle the more I was pushed towards the 6'. Like I said I traded this morning and ended up with a Colorado 4X4 Crew cab 6' box with the Diesel. At least I can have the hitch installed where it should be. So I know it has and can be done but now I would advise against the 5'. A local hitch shop had a look at the truck took measurements and said no problem installing it in the right place so that's what sold it for me.

No Sweat

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by 10Canyon53

I am less concerned with how much weight it can pull as how much weight it can stop.
...
My GVWR is 5,500 lbs.

A 2010 Canyon brochure from GM says that payload is 1,272 pounds, suggesting that the curb weight (for the Crew Cab 5.3L, but without options and possibly only 2WD) is 4,228 pounds. The new one has a higher GVWR, but is also heavier (higher curb weight) so the payload isn't much more. Add up a driver, 600 to 800 pounds of pin weight, at least 150 pounds of hitch, and you don't have much if anything left for passengers and/or cargo in the truck. This is a good reason to consider alternatives:

• get a 5.0 rather than the heavier 5.0TA, and/or
• load the trailer carefully to avoid high pin weight without loading up behind the trailer axle(s), and/or
• consider a truck with more payload capacity

While the trailer is stopped primarily for the trailer's brakes, the portion of the trailer's mass which is carried on the truck is for the truck to stop. The way Ford puts this in their owner's manuals is something like "the brake system is rated for the truck at GVWR".

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by 10Canyon53

My GCWR is 10,400 lbs.

It's interesting that GCWR isn't higher with that engine, since it is dependent primarily on the ability of the drivetrain to withstand sustained heavy work. The limitation is presumably engine cooling or the transmission. The GCWR of the new Colorado (with a 3.6L V6 gas engine) is 12,000 pounds... so this is more of an issue for the first generation.

A side note about engines and towing: power is not generally a big factor. The current 3.6L V6 has a bit more power than the 2010 5.3L V8, but significantly higher towing capacity... presumably because it is better cooled and/or has a different transmission.

With a curb weight of 4228 pounds (plus options), a GCWR of 10,400 pounds leaves 6,172 pounds for options, driver, passengers, cargo... and the trailer (and thus the 6,000 pound trailer rating - it's what's left after allowing for nothing but a driver). The 6,000 pound trailer weight limit itself won't matter - like most trucks, GCWR is the real limit.

Fortunately, Escapes are relatively light, and all of them are well under 5,000 pounds even with options, and with water in the tank. Unfortunately, there's also all your stuff in the trailer, and a current 5.0TA has a GVWR of 5,500 pounds - if you use all of that capacity, it will be too much for the truck, because the pin weight will be too high. The coming "2017" 5.0TA will likely be heavier. I would consider Escape's original fifth-wheel, the 5.0 (the single-axle predecessor to the 5.0TA) for this truck.

Another way to see this limit is that with any fifth-wheel you are likely to max out the 5,500 pound GVWR of the truck. With a 10,400 pound GCWR that leaves 4,900 pounds for the portion of the trailer weight carried on the trailer's axles. That's enough that your whole challenge is what is in the truck and on the hitch. Even if you could increase GCWR, it won't change the GVWR challenge, and that's a common situation for truck owners considering a fifth-wheel - even full-sized trucks.

[Dave Walter]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

...While the trailer is stopped primarily for the trailer's brakes, the portion of the trailer's mass which is carried on the truck is for the truck to stop. The way Ford puts this in their owner's manuals is something like "the brake system is rated for the truck at GVWR".

While it may be the intent of the manufacturer to size the brakes such that they can stop a weight equivalent to the GVWR, the connection between trailer and truck means that the actual weight being stopped by the truck brakes is highly dependent on the brake settings on your trailer. If the trailer brakes are set too high, the trailer could be stopping the trailer weight plus part of the truck weight. Conversely, if the trailer brakes are set too low, the truck brakes may be forced to stop more than the GVWR.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by 10Canyon53

My GAWR RR is 2,896 lbs.
The bed length is 5'
Would something like an RV5 Kingpin Extension help with the bed length?

GM's 2010 Canyon brochure has nice drawings showing the truck in side view, which help explain the cab and bed configuration choices... and how close the cab is to the axle with the Crew Cab. Because the truck was offered for commercial use, there is upfitter information available from GM, including a Body Builder Manual, and the image below is from that manual, for the Crew Cab; these diagrams have more dimensions shown.

The cab-to-axle spacing is 22.54" or 573 mm... not as much shorter than the larger trucks as I thought, so maybe only "very short", rather than "ultra short" . That means the hitch will need to be mounted at least 8" (200 mm) behind the axle line. With a 126" (3.2 m) wheelbase, that means every pound added to the hitch will add 1.06 pounds to the rear axle (and unload the front axle by 0.06 pounds). At a wild guess, the empty truck might have 45% of its curb weight on the rear axle, so with the trailer perhaps

45% of 4228 pounds of truck = 1900 lb
+ pin weight = 700 lb (for example)
+ 1/2 of driver and passenger at 170 lb each = 170 lb
+ 100 pounds of cargo in box = 100 lb
= total: 2870 lb

Yes, that's the entire rating of the rear axle, but each component is a rough estimate. I would take the truck to a scale, and put in more suitable numbers (and I did with my van).

The 5.0 is 8" (200 mm) narrower than the 5.0TA, so the pin can be a bit closer to the cab, very slightly reducing rear axle load and increasing stability.

The equivalent version of the new Colorado/Canyon (Body Builder Manual) isn't much longer in wheelbase, and has a bulkier cab, so it only has 1.4" or 35 mm more cab-to-axle space (23.94" or 608 mm)... but there is a longer-wheelbase version which stretches the box and cab-to-axle spacing, so it gets significantly better for fifth-wheel towing, with over 36" of cab-to-axle space.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by ice-breaker

While it may be the intent of the manufacturer to size the brakes such that they can stop a weight equivalent to the GVWR, the connection between trailer and truck means that the actual weight being stopped by the truck brakes is highly dependent on the brake settings on your trailer. If the trailer brakes are set too high, the trailer could be stopping the trailer weight plus part of the truck weight. Conversely, if the trailer brakes are set too low, the truck brakes may be forced to stop more than the GVWR.

I agree. Ford's point is that the truck's brakes are not for stopping any substantial trailer. Any manufacturer allows towing up to some moderate limit without trailer brakes (usually between 1,000 and 2,000 pounds), recognizing that there is some margin of capacity, so imperfectly set trailer brakes can be tolerated - you just don't deliberately plan to have the truck's brakes stopping much more than the truck's own GVWR.

The 2010 Canyon is typical of light vehicles with decent towing capacity, in that the trailer weight rating is substantially higher than the truck's curb weight, and moderately higher than even the truck's GVWR. Larger trucks (with drivetrains equipped for high loads since they are expected to be heavily used) are routinely rated to tow more than twice their own weight, so less-than-ideal brake balance is tolerable to a significant extent.

It's still worthwhile to adjust the trailer brake controller properly.

[Brian B-P]

For those interested in getting a current Colorado or Canyon for towing, I see that GM is upgrading the transmission from the current 6-speed (6L50) to the 8L45 8-speed for 207.
2017 GMC Canyon Adds New V-6, 8-Speed Automatic -- News -- Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog

The new transmission is the same design as the 8L90 used with the 5.3L and 6.2L V8 engines in the full-sized pickup trucks (and Camaro, Corvette, etc), but is not the same model. This series of transmissions can be built in various capacities, with the smaller components in the lower-capacity variants making them lighter and more compact. The digits after the "L" in these GM transmission codes indicate the capacity, so the 6L50 and 8L45 are designed for about the same capacity.

GM vehicles currently using the 8L90 will eventually move to the new 10-speed automatic, starting next year. Aside from issues of which model has room to fit a particular transmission, I think this is part of ensuring that there are always features reserved for more expensive models, to drive upgrades in the showroom.

[jamman]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

For those interested in getting a current Colorado or Canyon for towing, I see that GM is upgrading the transmission from the current 6-speed (6L50) to the 8L45 8-speed for 207.
2017 GMC Canyon Adds New V-6, 8-Speed Automatic -- News -- Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog
...

ONLY the (new) V6 gets the new transmission.

https://www.gmfleetorderguide.com/NA...ID=1&year=2017
https://www.gmfleetorderguide.com/NA...page=6&butID=3

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by jamman

ONLY the (new) V6 gets the new transmission.

https://www.gmfleetorderguide.com/NA...ID=1&year=2017
https://www.gmfleetorderguide.com/NA...page=6&butID=3

Good catch - the diesel still gets the 6-speed. Also, thanks for the fleet order guide link.
It appears that the 6-speed auto is "only available with (LWN) 2.8L Duramax Turbo-Diesel engine", and the 8-speed auto is "Included and only available with (LGZ) 3.6L DI DOHC V6 engine". What comes with the 4-cylinder engine, and what configurations can have the manual transmission, both seem irrelevant to towing, so the remaining choices are

• gas V6 with 8-speed auto, or
• diesel with 6-speed auto

... and the diesel only comes in a Crew Cab.

[JPSpins]

There is a lot of Canyon expertise in this thread and I have a couple of questions.
I'll be picking up my 19 next June and I am preparing my build while on my learning curve.

I am driving a 2016 Canyon diesel, crew, short box and I'd like to have recommendations on the WD hitches offered by ETI and which mount I should buy for the required 2" ball.

I plan on travelling alone and will keep the weight of cargo (and hopefully myself) well within limits.

JP

[cpaharley2008]

Unless your vehicle's manual specifies a w/d set up, I suggest you tow without one and make that decision yourself. with a 19' tongue weight range from #350 up, you may not require the need to shift weight off your hitch. Each driver/vehicle combo is different and unique.

[sunrisetrucker]

Originally Posted by JPSpins

There is a lot of Canyon expertise in this thread and I have a couple of questions.
I'll be picking up my 19 next June and I am preparing my build while on my learning curve.

I am driving a 2016 Canyon diesel, crew, short box and I'd like to have recommendations on the WD hitches offered by ETI and which mount I should buy for the required 2" ball.

I plan on travelling alone and will keep the weight of cargo (and hopefully myself) well within limits.

JP

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Unless your vehicle's manual specifies a w/d set up, I suggest you tow without one and make that decision yourself. with a 19' tongue weight range from #350 up, you may not require the need to shift weight off your hitch. Each driver/vehicle combo is different and unique.

I also have a 2016 Canyon crew, short box, and I'm pulling a 17B. I don't need a WDH but I use one anyway because it smooths out the ride. Also the longer reach of the stinger allows me to open the tailgate without hitting the landing gear.

Paul

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by sunrisetrucker

I also have a 2016 Canyon crew, short box, and I'm pulling a 17B. I don't need a WDH but I use one anyway because it smooths out the ride. Also the longer reach of the stinger allows me to open the tailgate without hitting the landing gear.

Paul

Same reasons for using a WDH for me - towing a 17B with a 2016 Tacoma Off Road.

[cpaharley2008]

So, Jon and Paul,
The two of you are saying you need to tow with the w/d because it tows better with versus without the set up?

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

So, Jon and Paul,
The two of you are saying you need to tow with the w/d because it tows better with versus without the set up?

I don't "need" to , but having done both, I prefer to.

[sunrisetrucker]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

I don't "need" to , but having done both, I prefer to.

Exactly
Paul

[JPSpins]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Unless your vehicle's manual specifies a w/d set up, I suggest you tow without one and make that decision yourself. with a 19' tongue weight range from #350 up, you may not require the need to shift weight off your hitch. Each driver/vehicle combo is different and unique.

The Canyon manual suggests, albeit lightly, the use of WD and anti-sway equipment and I will do so. I am new to trailering and I want a safe, pleasant drive from B.C. to Ottawa next summer!
Thank you for the input.
JPS

[Steve Clark]

Originally Posted by JPSpins

The Canyon manual suggests, albeit lightly, the use of WD and anti-sway equipment and I will do so. I am new to trailering and I want a safe, pleasant drive from B.C. to Ottawa next summer!
Thank you for the input.
JPS

JPS, The manual for our Ford Explorer did not suggest the sway control, just the W/D. For the reasons you list, we ordered both from ETI and Dennis did a great job with the set-up. We have since experimented towing without the anti-sway and using the W/D only, and we notice no difference. It's one less thing to put on and is easier to back. Good luck next summer!

[JPSpins]

Thank you!
JP

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by JPSpins

The Canyon manual suggests, albeit lightly, the use of WD and anti-sway equipment and I will do so.

The suggestions certainly are mild...

Weight distributing hitches

Many trailers can be towed with a weight-carrying hitch which simply features a coupler latched to the hitch ball, or a tow eye latched to a pintle hook. Other trailers may require a weight-distributing hitch that uses spring bars to distribute the trailer tongue weight among the tow vehicle and trailer axles.

and

A weight distributing hitch may be useful with some trailers.

Sway control devices

Consider using sway controls with any trailer. Ask a trailering professional about sway controls or refer to the trailer manufacturer's recommendations and instructions.

A "trailering professional" is, of course, normally someone who will make money by selling you some hardware.

There is no requirement or even recommendation to use WD. Larger GM pickups require WD over a specific level, only because their much higher towing capacity means much higher tongue weight.

So why use one? If you know what you are trying to change, you can make a sensible choice.

The basic reason for a weight-distributing hitch is to change the weight (actually load) carried by each axle, normally to relieve an over-loaded rear axle... so if the rear axle is not too heavily loaded, reducing rear axle load is not a reason to use WD. That means the first step is to check that load: measure the axle loads at a scale with the truck loaded for travel, or with it empty and add the stuff you will carry. Pickup trucks are intended to have more load on the rear axle than the front when fully loaded.

The other axle load of interest is the truck's front axle. Some people are concerned that the small reduction in front axle load due to the trailer will cause problems. With a distance from rear axle to hitch ball of about 56", and a wheelbase of 140.5" if you have the longer wheelbase (sorry Jean-Pierre, I don't know which you have) then 40% of the tongue weight will be taken off the front axle; if you have 400 pounds of tongue weight that's 160 pounds off the front axle, or about 6% of the non-towing front axle load. GM's instructions for setting up WD in the Colorado/Canyon's owner's manual is to return the front axle load to what it would be without the trailer, which hints at why they say "A weight distributing hitch may be useful with some trailers".

When using a weight-distributing hitch, the spring bars should be adjusted so the [body to ground] distance is the same after coupling the trailer to the tow vehicle and adjusting the hitch.

Sway reduction is the other reason people use WD. GM says

Consider using sway controls with any trailer.

They don't suggest adding any particular type of system, and the WD system can be the sway control system, which avoids adding more poorly-constructed, heavy, and ineffective hardware from the towing equipment industry. Fundamentally, a sway control system is anything that absorbs energy from the relative movement of the truck and trailer, just like making the pivot of pendulum sticky to keep it from continuing to swing.

A ideal WD system by itself actually makes sway worse by reducing rear axle traction, but actual WD systems have lots of springiness in them that tends to push the coupling toward straight, and they have varying amounts of friction (as an unintended side-effect of crude construction, or deliberately) which damps motion of the coupling (such as sway). No truck with ten to twelve feet of wheelbase should have a sway problem with a 19' tandem-axle travel trailer (my minivan handles a single-axle trailer almost that size with zero stability issues), but if you want a WD system for sway control, it would make sense to me to at least use one with lots of friction - the classic Equal-i-zer or cheaper Fastway E2 or similar sliding-bar design, or the Andersen No-Sway which has a conical rotary brake just for this purpose.


If this was a short SUV with a soft rear suspension, WD and sway control would likely make sense. I'm not sure why a truck needs them.