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Old 08-26-2016, 01:53 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by gbaglo View Post
Gotta love typos sometimes.
Or, not a typo?
What typo?
If you mean "rational", then you probably haven't seen a Raptor..
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Old 08-26-2016, 01:59 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Zardoz View Post
I'm going to order the 2017 model, but have decided on the 2.7EB with the current 6-speed transmission in order to maximize gas mileage.
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Originally Posted by rbryan4 View Post
You might be surprised in the mileage department. A 10 speed transmission is very appealing, and it should help with that.
I understand going with an existing configuration due to timing, since the 10-speed is not yet available with anything, and it is not clear when (or even if) it will be come with specifically the 2.7L EcoBoost... but for fuel efficiency I agree with Robert. The 10-speed transmission's whole reason for existence is fuel economy, and (barring any major problems with the design) if available it will improve the gas mileage of any engine compared to the 6-speed.
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:50 PM   #93
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I've also read that all 2017 F-150's with an Ecoboost engine (both the 2.7L and the 3.5L) will come with an engine "stop/start" feature...
Yes, the electrically powered lubrication pump of the 10R80 transmission is reportedly designed specifically to improve this mode of operation. I assume that the idea is to be able to circulate transmission fluid to avoid heat-soak despite the input shaft stopping, or perhaps just to avoid a delay in the pressure coming up (which is needed to run the internal clutches which make the transmission work).

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Originally Posted by War Eagle View Post
We've driven a Prius for the past 10 years, so I'm familiar with the general concept, but that's on a little 1.5L engine with the "big" battery to get the little car rolling for a push start. I'm not sure about the long-term wear and tear on the starter getting a 3.5L engine up and running repeatedly in stop-and-go traffic. Time will tell....
The Prius has a big battery (the high-voltage pack), but two other characteristics are more important to start-stop operation:
  • in a Hybrid Synergy Drive (Toyota's system) one motor-generator (MG2) can move the car with power from the battery without starting the engine at all, so even if there is bit of starting lag it doesn't matter, and
  • the engine isn't started by a typical small starter motor, or by the car moving on battery power, but by the other motor-generator (MG1), which is big for a starter motor (because that's not its primary function).
Starting an engine with more cylinders is actually easier in a way, because there are more shots at firing per revolution (two cylinders fire per revolution in a four-cylinder, and three per rev in a six).

I have only driven one car with start-stop operation, and it was completely unobtrusive... but it was a Camry Hybrid, not something with a conventional drivetrain. Like Adrian, I like the idea at least for longer stops; I would only be concerned that it could be annoying in stop-and-go traffic. I hope no one spends much time in such traffic while towing a travel trailer.

A hybrid is inherently better suited to start-stop (or idle stop) operation, but conventional cars have commonly had this feature in Europe for quite a while, and even here for a few years. There's lots of experience for Ford to have learned from... we'll see how they did.

Obviously it is important to keep the engine turning while towing for engine braking in case it is required, but I don't know why the feature of stopping the engine when the vehicle is stationary would be disabled just because there is a trailer attached.
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Old 08-26-2016, 11:13 PM   #94
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Another stop/start pain is when there is a wreck or road construction on the interstate and two (or more) lanes of heavy traffic get shoved down into one lane and traffic gets backed up for miles - crawling at a snail's pace when moving at all. Crawl, stop, crawl, stop, crawl, - you get the idea. Not a direct comparison of technologies, but our Prius hates that - and that's not even towing. Especially when it's hot and the air conditioner pulls the "big battery" down fast because there's not enough "down the road" motion to recharge it as fast as the A/C is draining it. Again, I realize I'm comparing apples to oranges, but I still think the interstate traffic jam situation would not be fun for an F-150 towing with the stop/start feature activated. But maybe that's one of the reasons they include an "OFF" button.
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Old 08-26-2016, 11:33 PM   #95
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Another stop/start pain is when there is a wreck or road construction on the interstate and two (or more) lanes of heavy traffic get shoved down into one lane and traffic gets backed up for miles - crawling at a snail's pace when moving at all. Crawl, stop, crawl, stop, crawl, - you get the idea. Not a direct comparison of technologies, but our Prius hates that - and that's not even towing. Especially when it's hot and the air conditioner pulls the "big battery" down fast because there's not enough "down the road" motion to recharge it as fast as the A/C is draining it.
Recharging doesn't require movement down the road - it just requires the engine to run. A Prius can put many kilowatts into the battery while stationary or creeping. Like many vehicle management strategies, the acceptability of stop/start depends heavily on programming behaviour which responds appropriately to conditions... although this one should have been easy (start the engine when the battery gets low, moving or not).

Just be happy you don't have a first-generation Prius, in which the air conditioner was driven mechanically by the engine (like a normal car) so it had no way to run the air conditioner while the engine was shut down. With that system you either saved gas and got hot by turning the A/C off, or left it on and missed a significant efficiency benefit of the hybrid system. Unless Ford puts a major electrical system in the F-150 to run the air conditioning (unlikely), the truck will have the same issue as an early Prius.

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Originally Posted by War Eagle View Post
Again, I realize I'm comparing apples to oranges, but I still think the interstate traffic jam situation would not be fun for an F-150 towing with the stop/start feature activated. But maybe that's one of the reasons they include an "OFF" button.
I agree that when the system can't understand the situation, allowing the driver to decide on another mode is important. Unfortunately, many people make decisions based on misinformation and guesses which defeat good design work and are not in the driver's interest, so designers are cautious about making it too easy for the driver to override automated systems.
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Old 08-26-2016, 11:49 PM   #96
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Just be happy you don't have a first-generation Prius, in which the air conditioner was driven mechanically by the engine (like a normal car) so it had no way to run the air conditioner while the engine was shut down. With that system you either saved gas and got hot by turning the A/C off, or left it on and missed a significant efficiency benefit of the hybrid system. Unless Ford puts a major electrical system in the F-150 to run the air conditioning (unlikely), the truck will have the same issue as an early Prius.
On the F150, the AC doesn't shut off completely when the vehicle auto stop is engaged, but runs at a very low level. I can tell you this mode isn't adequate to keep the truck cool in South Texas weather, but that's usually OK since auto stop is only for a few moments. It's only relevant however when you're not towing, since auto stop/start is automatically disabled when towing.



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Old 08-27-2016, 12:27 AM   #97
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I didn't realize that the current F-150 already has stop/start when this subject first came up. It looks 2017 won't change anything significant about stop/start from 2016, and like the new 10-speed transmission won't change anything about stop/start, except that the transmission will be ready to go a bit more quickly.

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Originally Posted by rbryan4 View Post
On the F150, the AC doesn't shut off completely when the vehicle auto stop is engaged, but runs at a very low level. I can tell you this mode isn't adequate to keep the truck cool in South Texas weather, but that's usually OK since auto stop is only for a few moments.
From one of the web pages I found about this issue (AverageCarGuy.com - 2015 Ford F-150 First Impressions Review);
Quote:
When the engine isn’t running, the air conditioner is also not running. The fan continues to run to blow air into the cabin, but if it is a bit humid it might get a bit uncomfortable before the engine restarts. To help prevent that, the truck is constantly looking at air conditioner load and outside air temperature. If it’s too hot to turn off the truck, the truck continues to run so the air conditioner runs. If you’re at a long traffic light, the truck might turn off and then restart before you let off the brake to keep the air conditioner running.
Like the first-generation Prius, and very unlike later generations, no engine operation means no air conditioning (just the fan)... but the F-150 will restart the engine if required.

Another forum discussion - FordF150.net - F-150 Auto-Start-Stop Information - included a clip from the owner's manual which explains this. I have a copy of that manual on file and at a quick glance it does appear to have the quoted content.
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Old 08-27-2016, 12:41 PM   #98
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In the 10 years we're owned our Prius (2006), the engine has had to kick on only twice while stopped in order to take over for a discharged big battery. Once, it was a hot day (we're in Alabama so we have a lot of hot days), we had groceries in the car that needed to stay cool, we made another quick stop, I stayed with the car, battery was running the A/C, the big battery ran down to the red bars pretty quickly, and the engine started. When you're not used to that, it gets your attention. The other time was a really hot day stuck in miles of interstate construction and congested stop and go traffic. Again, the big battery got down to the red bars, and the engine kicked on. So yes, there is a back up system to start the engine, and it works, but it's a little unnerving when you're not used to it. So, I guess we'll all just have to get used to it if this is a sign of things to come across multiple manufacturer platforms.
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Old 08-27-2016, 10:04 PM   #99
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I am looking at F150s and require a 36 gal tank. I have noted that some dealers have inventory with the larger tank and some have none. Some just seem to have no demand and are not familiar with it.

As concerns knowledgable sales staff I suggest starting you conversation by just asking them if they are a truck expert. If they say no I ask for one. If they say yes I ask them a question about something like payload and fifth wheel hitch placement. If they are not familiar with trucks a good sales person will get one who is.
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Old 08-27-2016, 11:30 PM   #100
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Definitely agree about the 36 gallon tank Richard. The range is amazing. It's nice to just go and not have to bother with fill ups as often - towing or not. When we're not towing, we can actually go 900 miles or more on a single tank.

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