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Old 12-20-2014, 02:12 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GerriJ View Post
and why grumpy old men like to say "Jackass".
I've never heard Baglo say "Jackass"

But seriously I have to question some aspects of the "frontal area" discussion. How can there be a hard and fast rule when the TV's are so varied? For example there has to be a difference even between a pickup with and without a canopy. With a canopy there's much more of a low pressure area created at the front of the trailer which I'd think has to reduce drag and mitigate frontal area calculations.

Also, I've towed my 19' with my 4l Ford Ranger a long way and I haven't seen any negative effects. However, when I get around to it, I'll install a transmission temperature gauge to make sure.

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Old 12-20-2014, 02:14 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossue View Post
Yeah but in this case it isn't nonsense and feel my main point has been entirely ignored- that V-6 engines are a dubious choice to pull both 19 & 21 Escapes when both weight and frontal area are factored. As mentioned in many a discussion, there's a lot more to consider when choosing a TV than just the stated tow rating given my the manufacturer. This is a spec that hasn't been discussed here before but has on several other forums. Slippage on the torque converter is a problem when the engine doesn't send enough power to it resulting in more heat. Jack's V-8 most likely does help reduce this effect.
Although I would state it a bit differently I agree for the most part. I think horsepower, torque and maybe displacement are more important than number of cylinders.

I think many in this forum (and elsewhere) are too quick (IMO) to approve tug/trailer combinations. I think it takes careful consideration of everything relevant you can find: your tug manufacturer's guidance/specs, ETI specs, other tug manufacturer's guidance/specs, user experiences, the way you drive, where you drive, the way you load the tug/RV, your trailer towing experience, your comfort with risk, etc.

For the record I tow my 19 with a 4.7L V8 Tundra and a WDH with no sway control. I have towed without the WDH but strongly prefer to use it and I find the extra minute (singular) spent hooking it up well worth it.

I generally do not take part in this sort of thread since it is sometimes like a religious or political discussion - both sides get upset and no one listens.
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Old 12-20-2014, 02:15 PM   #23
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In our case the weight is 25% under the tow rating and I estimate the frontal area is 25% over the limitation Ford recommends. Hopefully they balance each other out. We have towed the 19 with the Flex now for 35000kM+. I would buy another Flex or a Grand Cherokee V6 to tow the 19.
I agree with your point on the transmission. I change the fluid every 30,000kM of towing as a precaution.
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Old 12-20-2014, 02:58 PM   #24
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From Ford:

https://www.fleet.ford.com/TRUCKBBAS...FLRVTT_gde.pdf


Frontal Area
is the total area in square
feet that a moving vehicle
and trailer exposes to
air resistance. The chart
shows the limitations that
must be considered in
selecting a vehicle/trailer
combination. Exceeding
these limitations may
significantly reduce the
performance of your
towing vehicle. Selecting
a trailer with a lowdrag,
rounded front
design will help optimize
performance and fuel
economy.
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Old 12-20-2014, 03:04 PM   #25
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That's a no nonsense pdf.
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Old 12-20-2014, 03:04 PM   #26
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May reduce performance.
Not exactly the dire warnings suggested in this thread.
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Old 12-20-2014, 03:06 PM   #27
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From a trailer manufacturer:

TrailManor|Easy Towing|Lighweight Travel Trailer

Light duty towing of a well-balanced trailer a few hundred pounds above the rating is much safer than towing a lighter, poorly balanced unit with a tendency to sway. Also, towing an upright trailer with large frontal area at highway speeds can damage a transmission even if the trailer weight is below the tow rating.

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Old 12-20-2014, 03:10 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaglo View Post
May reduce performance.
Not exactly the dire warnings suggested in this thread.
There is a pattern of your responses that I am very uncomfortable with, and I notice other people are too.

Second request, as a Site Team person please try not to show your heavy bias. I think of the Site Team as a 'lubricant' making things go smoother and adding to healthy discussions.
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Old 12-20-2014, 03:18 PM   #29
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I hesitate to ever comment on heated threads. But TO ME, any blanket statements on frontal area would seem very hard to be accurate.

Aerodynamic drag for a tow and a trailer combination would be an extremely complex calculation. What sometimes seems like common sense from looking at something doesn't always seem to work in drag, An extreme example is a modern F1 race car with little bits and pieces of winglets stuck all over the things and a front wing that looks insane. Granted they are trying to generate downforce, but drag reduction is also a main design factor.

So, unless someone is going to give us access to a wind tunnel.....
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Old 12-20-2014, 03:31 PM   #30
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I'll chime in about the tone of this thread

The poster who used the word "nonsense" apologized. But this isn't a "heated" thread. At least, it isn't heated when I reflect on the discourse of other Forums I'm familiar with. we need to understand that when reading printed texts It is difficult interpret intent or emotion.

From my perspective I enjoy humour - the Dolly Parton comment was a hoot.

Anyway, if a lot of us are sitting around watching Corner Gas (and admit it) we are going to look like cranky senior citizens to our southern friends who are bemused by what we are talking about (I might watch it tonight. Is it on iTunes or Netflix ?
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Old 12-20-2014, 03:39 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaglo View Post
In the Explorer example, how would a tow package double the frontal area that could be towed? Twice as many cylinders?
No, it's not even about power. The frontal area constraint is mostly about how hard the drivetrain (engine, transmission, final drive) can be expected to work continuously for sustained periods to overcome air drag and be reliable. If the weak link in the drivetrain chain under sustained load is transmission cooling, then the difference might be made by just a larger cooler... but only the tow vehicle manufacturer knows what they found in testing to be the weak link.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron in BC View Post
But seriously I have to question some aspects of the "frontal area" discussion. How can there be a hard and fast rule when the TV's are so varied?
I agree that frontal area is an over-simplification. It's not just the tug variation; it's the shape of the trailer and the relationship between the two bodies. The right spec would be CdA - the product of coefficient of drag and frontal area... but no one will know what that is for their trailer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaglo View Post
May reduce performance.
Not exactly the dire warnings suggested in this thread.
It's not just performance (how fast can I go, how quickly can I accelerate, how much speed can I maintain up a grade), it's reliability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by azjack View Post
I am aware of the jeep info and really notice the drag with head wind or tailwind. I figure a bigger engine compensates rather nicely.
Jack with a hemi V-8
That's part of the answer, and if performance was the only issue then a bigger engine might be the entire answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossue View Post
Yeah but in this case it isn't nonsense and feel my main point has been entirely ignored- that V-6 engines are a dubious choice to pull both 19 (but especially) 21 Escapes when both weight and frontal area are factored.
Yes, there are lots of factors, and the number of cylinders and whether the engine is inline or a vee are not relevant. Huge truck engines are normally six-cylinders, as is the Cummins turbodiesel in Dodge/Ram trucks that so many people worship. Being in a vee is irrelevant; it isn't a problem (or advantage) for all sorts of commercial vehicle and industrial engines. Engine size is important to how much power can be produced for long periods, but not the cylinder count or configuration.

In practice, most V6 engines in available vehicles are not ideally sized for an Escape 21... but then there are the Ford EcoBoost 3.5L V6 and the VM Motori (sold by Chrysler) 3.0 V6 turbodiesel. Why not just ignore the cylinder count? It would be better to just go by displacement... remembering to count a turbocharger as about a 50% increase in displacement.

Conversely, "V8" doesn't necessarily mean towing ability, even if accompanied by a high horsepower rating. A Ferrari 458 is not a suitable tow vehicle.
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Old 12-20-2014, 03:39 PM   #32
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But now having heard about "frontal area" do I have to worry about "it" when towing our 17b with our Nissan 6 cylinder ? Maybe I should ask Gbaglo
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Old 12-20-2014, 03:40 PM   #33
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Anyway, if a lot of us are sitting around watching Corner Gas (and admit it) we are going to look like cranky senior citizens to our southern friends who are bemused by what we are talking about (I might watch it tonight. Is it on iTunes or Netflix ?
I haven't had any luck finding it on any of my streaming services in the States -iTunes, Netflix or Amazon - but maybe the Canadian versions have it?
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Old 12-20-2014, 03:51 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryandLiz View Post
But now having heard about "frontal area" do I have to worry about "it" when towing our 17b with our Nissan 6 cylinder ? Maybe I should ask Gbaglo
What can I say?
Oh yah. Nothing.
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Old 12-20-2014, 03:55 PM   #35
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I haven't had any luck finding it (Corner Gas) on any of my streaming services in the States -iTunes, Netflix or Amazon - but maybe the Canadian versions have it?
I think Corner Gas - The Movie was on CTV network ( we recorded it to watch later. You could try the CTV site for streaming video.
There is a Corner Gas marathon on Monday on Comedy Channel ( Canada again ).
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Old 12-20-2014, 03:59 PM   #36
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Quote:
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I haven't had any luck finding it on any of my streaming services in the States -iTunes, Netflix or Amazon - but maybe the Canadian versions have it?
I think I found it DVD's Netflix by mail . Seems to be more choice as long as they have this option . Pat
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Old 12-20-2014, 04:02 PM   #37
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I think Corner Gas - The Movie was on CTV network ( we recorded it to watch later. You could try the CTV site for streaming video.
There is a Corner Gas marathon on Monday on Comedy Channel ( Canada again ).
CTV site says: "Sorry, the video you have selected is not available for viewing outside of Canada." The humor must be to intellectual for us and only appropriate for

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Old 12-20-2014, 04:03 PM   #38
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"V8" doesn't necessarily mean towing ability, even if accompanied by a high horsepower rating. A Ferrari 458 is not a suitable tow vehicle.
In the interest of 'lightening up' this thread, tell that to this guy:
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Old 12-20-2014, 04:59 PM   #39
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In the interest of 'lightening up' this thread, tell that to this guy:
Could this be a remake of "The Long Long Trailer"? Loren
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Old 12-20-2014, 05:07 PM   #40
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frontal area

When I mention the jeep, I guess I should mention the 5.7 engine, 5 speed trans with a good history, the trans cooler and of course the display of trans temp, engine oil temp and exact water temp. all from the factory. After 75,000 miles, half towing, I'll probably buy another. I'm prepared for the I-70 tunnels in Colorado being closed and then I'll just drive over the pass as we used to.
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