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12-19-2014, 11:26 PM
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#1
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: SLO County, California
Trailer: 2014 Escape 21C 2019 Expedition
Posts: 5,207
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Frontal Area
From Towing 17B Thread: "The Jeep Grand Cherokee owners manual lists the maximum trailer frontal area as 55 sq ft." Ford states their 2014 Explorer is good for 40 sq. ft. with Class III Tow Package and 20 without. Explorer then not good for a 17 Escape.
This seems to be a spec most of us have been unaware of. Search it and you will probably agree it's a valid one. In my view ETI's first sentence on their homepage is not accurate for the 19 & 21(60/64 sq. ft. respectively). They do offer a disclaimer in the FAQ section under "do I need a truck?", but that is not a headline like the first statement. Not only do probably most V-6's flunk the frontal area test for 19 & 21 models, but apparently so does a V-8 Jeep Grand Cherokee.
Now I probably know what happened to Gabe's transmission on his Ford Escape towing his 17B back to Vancouver Island from Arizona: too much drag. Saw that trans issue on Google.
I don't have any axe to grind and am happy with our 21, but believe full disclosure is in everyone's best interest.
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12-19-2014, 11:37 PM
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#2
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: North Vancouver, British Columbia
Trailer: 2009 Escape 17B 2020 Toyota Highlander XLE
Posts: 17,136
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I'm thinking this "total frontal area" "problem" is nonsense.
The more frontal area, the more gas you're going to use, until at some point, as you increase frontal area, you will come to a stop.
Is there a spec for if you only drive up hill, down hill or on the prairies?
In the Explorer example, how would a tow package double the frontal area that could be towed? Twice as many cylinders?
__________________
What happens to the hole when the cheese is gone?
- Bertolt Brecht
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12-19-2014, 11:39 PM
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#3
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: SLO County, California
Trailer: 2014 Escape 21C 2019 Expedition
Posts: 5,207
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Google before spouting.
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12-19-2014, 11:41 PM
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#4
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: North Vancouver, British Columbia
Trailer: 2009 Escape 17B 2020 Toyota Highlander XLE
Posts: 17,136
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Can't.
I'm watching Corner Gas, The Movie.
__________________
What happens to the hole when the cheese is gone?
- Bertolt Brecht
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12-19-2014, 11:45 PM
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#5
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Ventura County, California
Trailer: 2015 Escape 17A
Posts: 2,344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaglo
The more frontal area, the more gas you're going to use, until at some point, as you increase frontal area, you will come to a stop.
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Yup! and Yup! Makes me only want to tow highly-streamlined Escape Trailers, and maintain the gelcoat in a high-gloss low-friction condition.
Edit:
And, this is a very interesting thread:
http://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f3...sold-3680.html
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12-20-2014, 12:05 AM
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#6
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: North Vancouver, British Columbia
Trailer: 2009 Escape 17B 2020 Toyota Highlander XLE
Posts: 17,136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossue
Now I probably know what happened to Gabe's transmission on his Ford Escape towing his 17B back to Vancouver Island from Arizona: too much drag. Saw that trans issue on Google.
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Actually, it's more likely that he was towing with the transmission in OD instead of D. Mechanic told me I came very close to blowing up my torque converter, towing a tent trailer with my Ford Explorer in OD. Not a lot of frontal area there.
My daughter pointed out that I had told her that the Explorer manual said to tow in D, not OD, and she wondered why I had forgotten that.
__________________
What happens to the hole when the cheese is gone?
- Bertolt Brecht
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12-20-2014, 12:32 AM
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#7
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: North Van., British Columbia
Trailer: 2014 Escape 19, sold; 2019 Escape 21, Sept. 2019
Posts: 8,728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaglo
Can't.
I'm watching Corner Gas, The Movie.
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Me too Bet they get good towing mileage in that part of the country
Ron
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12-20-2014, 01:30 AM
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#8
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Port Angeles, Washington
Trailer: 2014 19'
Posts: 534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaglo
I'm thinking this "total frontal area" "problem" is nonsense.
The more frontal area, the more gas you're going to use, until at some point, as you increase frontal area, you will come to a stop.
Is there a spec for if you only drive up hill, down hill or on the prairies?
In the Explorer example, how would a tow package double the frontal area that could be towed? Twice as many cylinders?
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I am surprised to see a SiteTeam person calling this 'nonsense'.
You might disagree but let's keep this constructive and friendly.
We used the term 'flat plate equivalent' and it is a serious consideration.... What ever you call it.
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12-20-2014, 01:43 AM
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#9
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: North Vancouver, British Columbia
Trailer: 2009 Escape 17B 2020 Toyota Highlander XLE
Posts: 17,136
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I apologize for calling it nonsense.
__________________
What happens to the hole when the cheese is gone?
- Bertolt Brecht
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12-20-2014, 02:37 AM
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#10
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: St. Thomas not BVI., Ontario
Trailer: 2014 Escape 5.0TA / 2016 Ram Eco Diesel 4X4
Posts: 8,035
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Hi: guys... Ever tried towing a parachute? Not much weight... but lots of frontal area.
Only trouble with Corner Gas...The Movie is I fell asleep!!! Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie Not far from Sparta Dragway
__________________
Quote Bugs Bunny..."Don't take life too seriously, none of us get out of it ALIVE"!!!
'16 Ram Eco D. 4X4 Laramie Longhorn CC & '14 Escape 5.0TA
St.Thomas (Not the Virgin Islands) Ontario
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12-20-2014, 05:45 AM
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#11
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Southwick, Massachusetts
Trailer: None, sold my 2014 5.0TA
Posts: 7,124
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I've got the feeling the rounded areas of the front don't count completely on the escapes, maybe half. What's the actual flat surface area of the 17 compared to the total front profile? With the box on the front you probably have even less flat area as it's streamlined too.
Are you counting the ground to trailer distance in your calculations?
__________________
Happy Motoring
Bob
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12-20-2014, 07:52 AM
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#12
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Trailer: 2014 Escape 19', 1974 Boler
Posts: 470
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Interesting conversation and one I am sure many have not considered. Ford appears to be one of the few that is proactively publishing the Frontal Area information. For the majority of vehicle there does not appear to be much data, if any, available ... yet
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12-20-2014, 08:30 AM
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#13
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Tucson, AZ, Arizona
Trailer: gone, 19 and 21 & 17B with 5.0 now. gone
Posts: 790
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frontal area
I am aware of the jeep info and really notice the drag with head wind or tailwind. I figure a bigger engine compensates rather nicely.
Jack with a hemi V-8
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12-20-2014, 10:15 AM
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#14
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Solvang, California
Trailer: 2016 21' Escape (usetaowna a 19, a Burro and 2 Casitas)
Posts: 842
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaglo
Can't.
I'm watching Corner Gas, The Movie.
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Thanks for the movie tip. Never heard of it before! Looks like another Canadian gem that you folks kept to yourselves! I got hooked on Trailer Park Boys after seeing an episode a few years ago. Aside from the language, its hilarious!
Any other recommendations
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12-20-2014, 12:22 PM
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#15
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Delta, British Columbia
Trailer: 2015 5.0TA
Posts: 271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azjack
I am aware of the jeep info and really notice the drag with head wind or tailwind. I figure a bigger engine compensates rather nicely.
Jack with a hemi V-8
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Jack, while I am sure the bigger engine helps, its the transmission that takes the brunt. I met a guy once that totaled his transmission in a full size Chev with 500 cu in. trying to buck a headwind crossing Saskatchewan with a camper on the pickup. A trans temp gauge would help monitor the situation.
However, having said this I think all of us have done our part by owning an Escape. If you can't pull an Escape you can't pull anything. Just take it easy and don't over do it when you are up against the wind.
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12-20-2014, 12:32 PM
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#16
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Delta, British Columbia
Trailer: 2015 5.0TA
Posts: 271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greggo
Thanks for the movie tip. Never heard of it before! Looks like another Canadian gem that you folks kept to yourselves! I got hooked on Trailer Park Boys after seeing an episode a few years ago. Aside from the language, its hilarious!
Any other recommendations
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Aside from also being hilarious, Corner Gas is nothing like Trailer Park Boys. It helps to know a bit about life in Saskatchewan, and why grumpy old men like to say "Jackass".
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12-20-2014, 12:44 PM
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#17
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Kelowna, British Columbia
Trailer: 2008 Escape 17b
Posts: 1,868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaglo
I apologize for calling it nonsense.
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Don't apologize for using the word nonsense. If you think something does not make sense, then nonsense is the perfect word to use.
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12-20-2014, 01:31 PM
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#18
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Surrey B.C., British Columbia
Trailer: 2012 Escape 19
Posts: 150
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Ford in their towing guide advises to take total frontal area into "consideration". They also indicate some low values as limitations. Our Ford Flex and 19 is well beyond the "limitations" Ford lists. I tend to feel the word consideration makes more sense when actually towing. I watch our fuel consumption and when headwinds cause the consumption to go up a lot we slow down.
http://www.fleet.ford.com/resources/...TTgde_Sep9.pdf
__________________
Brian
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12-20-2014, 01:37 PM
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#19
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: North Vancouver, British Columbia
Trailer: 2009 Escape 17B 2020 Toyota Highlander XLE
Posts: 17,136
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I have noticed that Dolly Parton has no problem touring the country.
__________________
What happens to the hole when the cheese is gone?
- Bertolt Brecht
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12-20-2014, 01:37 PM
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#20
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: SLO County, California
Trailer: 2014 Escape 21C 2019 Expedition
Posts: 5,207
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Yeah but in this case it isn't nonsense and feel my main point has been entirely ignored- that V-6 engines are a dubious choice to pull both 19 (but especially) 21 Escapes when both weight and frontal area are factored. As mentioned in many a discussion, there's a lot more to consider when choosing a TV than just the stated tow rating given my the manufacturer. This is a spec that hasn't been discussed here before but has on several other forums. Slippage on the torque converter is a problem when the engine doesn't send enough power to it resulting in more heat. Jack's V-8 most likely does help reduce this effect.
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