Full size pickup as a tow vehicle

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by thoer

Is curb weight for pickups calculated differently than cars and SUV's?

Wiki says this about curb weight: Curb weight (US English) or kerb weight (UK English) is the total weight of a vehicle with standard equipment, all necessary operating consumables such as motor oil, transmission oil, coolant, air conditioning refrigerant, and a full tank of fuel, while not loaded with either passengers or cargo.

If it is the same, the curb weight (CW), gross combined weight rating (GCWR) and gross vehicle weight ratings (GVWR) should make accurate capacity calculations possible.

One issue is that the payload capacity shown on the vehicle manufacturer's website is for the base vehicle.. The payload capacity listed on the sticker attached to the vehicle is with options as built at the factory . No allowances are made for dealer or owner added options . The difference in payload between the website numbers and the actual numbers of my truck as it sits is over 350 lbs

[thoer]

Steve on my Highlander this sticker is attached on the door next to the factory sticker. My manual has all the various Highlanders listed by model number all with different load ratings, etc. I had to make sure I was calculating for my exact model number. I think this sticker is for the tow package.

[rbryan4]

Spot on Steve. As has been mentioned hundreds of times before, the numbers either work or they don't.

Towing capability is very little about opinion, and more about math.


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[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by rbryan4

Spot on Steve. As has been mentioned hundreds of times before, the numbers either work or they don't.

Towing capability is very little about opinion, and more about math.


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It was evident by your posts that you did your homework and ran the numbers BEFORE you purchased your Ford F150 or your Escape trailer. It seems that others buy the Escape they want and then discover that their tow vehicle is inadequate or marginal at best.
We were looking at purchasing an Escape 5.0 TA , so we ran the numbers for my current vehicle and they don't work. I have two choices, either go with the Escape 21 or purchase a vehicle that is capable of towing an Escape 5.0 TA. We are looking at buying a new boat that is a 26 footer but unfortunately our garage is only 24 feet deep . Better to discover this problem before ordering the boat.
If you do not have or cannot afford to purchase an adequate tow vehicle for the trailer you wish to purchase , then why buy the trailer.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by rbryan4

As Bob and others have pointed out, the issue is payload capacity. Unlike a bumper pull, some of the trailer weight rests in the bed. So, just as an example, if your payload capacity is 1000 lbs, and your pin weight is 500-600 lbs, that means you only have 400-500 lbs of capacity left- for all other cargo, including the passengers and you the driver.

I agree that the issue is usually payload capacity, but this is just like a conventional ("tag" or "bumper pull") trailer... just larger. Escape 5.0TA owners routinely have 700 pounds and up on the pin, but based on a small sample of Escape 21' owners, they have 450 to 500 pounds resting on the tow vehicle; the heavier trailer and higher proportion of trailer weight on the hitch double the problem.

Some people use a weight-distribution system with a conventional trailer to reduce the load on the tow vehicle, and that is not an option with a fifth-wheel; however, if the small portion of tongue weight which a WD system forces the trailer axles to carry is needed to get the tug under GVWR then the tow vehicle is overloaded even with the WD.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

4 adult males riding in many passenger cars put the vehicle at 20% over its payload capacity . MY POINT ,!! We way underestimate the actual payload / tongue weight we will be carrying when towing so it fits into the limits of the tow vehicle we wish to use.

This is probably surprise to many, but I agree that payload really can be a problem even with cars. I have read that police departments in California have switched from the Ford Police Interceptor Sedan (which is a Taurus) to the Ford Police Interceptor SUV (which is an Explorer) because four officers and their full set of gear were exceeding the sedan's payload capacity.

Originally Posted by steve dunham

I doubt you could find one Escape 5.0TA with the stated pin weight of 600 lbs or even close to 600 lbs when loaded for travel.

Certainly not, since 600 pounds is the published pin weight for a dry and empty 5.0TA (up to 2016 model) with base equipment. That's 16% of the trailer's total weight so when you add half a ton of optional equipment and your stuff - and maintain 16% for an example - you get to 760 pounds of pin weight. Of course it is even higher if you load stuff forward or add more stuff.

I hope no one plans based on 600 pound operating tongue weight. Escape doesn't suggest this, and no one else has in this discussion; 800 pounds or more is widely accepted as realistic.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by thoer

Is curb weight for pickups calculated differently than cars and SUV's?

No, it's the same. Trailer weight calculations allow for the weight of a driver, but that driver allowance is not part of the curb weight.

Originally Posted by thoer

If it is the same, the curb weight (CW), gross combined weight rating (GCWR) and gross vehicle weight ratings (GVWR) should make accurate capacity calculations possible.

Yes... as demonstrated in many discussions in this forum. One challenge is that GCWR can be hard to find for vehicles other than pickup trucks and commercial vehicles. Another challenge, which was already mentioned, is that curb weight for a base version of the vehicle is relatively easy to find but actual curb weight is a little harder to find... or just less likely to be accepted by the owner wearing rose coloured glasses.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Chapitre

Our tongue weight on our 5TA is close to 800. - 825 - I think the 20% probably isn't too far off.

If 825 pounds is 20% of the total, then the total trailer weight is 4100 pounds. Is it really that light, loaded for travel? That would be only 400 pounds of options, water, propane, and cargo.

[rbryan4]

The 600 lbs I used in my example above was just a number out of thin air - it wasn't referencing the 5.0TA's actual pin weight. I'm actually kind of surprised that the published dry/empty pin weight is that low.


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[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by rbryan4

The 600 lbs I used in my example above was just a number out of thin air - it wasn't referencing the 5.0TA's actual pin weight. I'm actually kind of surprised that the published dry/empty pin weight is that low.

Interesting coincidence.
The 5.0TA isn't much bigger than the 21', and there's not much of anything in the loft; net effect only 240 pounds higher hitch weight than the 21'.

[thoer]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

No, it's the same. Trailer weight calculations allow for the weight of a driver, but that driver allowance is not part of the curb weight.
Yes... as demonstrated in many discussions in this forum. One challenge is that GCWR can be hard to find for vehicles other than pickup trucks and commercial vehicles. Another challenge, which was already mentioned, is that curb weight for a base version of the vehicle is relatively easy to find but actual curb weight is a little harder to find... or just less likely to be accepted by the owner wearing rose coloured glasses.

Brian, that must be something that varies between manufacturers. When I was shopping for our Highlander, the Toyota owners manual for the Highlander (downloaded from the website) listed everything and very specifically for each model. Toyota offers very few "options" anymore (you need to pick a model level that matches as close to what you want) so the weights and capacities are very specific. I posted that picture above to show the sticker indicating that my capacity was dropped slightly due to the extra weight of the tow package.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by thoer

Brian, that must be something that varies between manufacturers. When I was shopping for our Highlander, the Toyota owners manual for the Highlander (downloaded from the website) listed everything and very specifically for each model.

Yes, and it also varies within the same manufacturer, and even between years of the same model. My 2004 Sienna manual includes the GCWR, but some later years don't. The Highlander manual is great, but the RAV4 manual doesn't mention GCWR. The old Matrix manual (I haven't looked at a recent one, and that model is now gone) barely admitted that towing was possible.

Generally, within a manufacturer the more likely a model is to be used for towing - or perhaps the more that the model is promoted for towing - the better the information in the manual.

[Lorry & Rich]

I just drove 2500 miles,thru the Cascades, Glacier National Park, Yellowstone with my 2013 F150 Supercrew 3.5L EcoBoast, 3.31 rr axle, equipped with trailer tow pkg, brake controller. Handled our new 5.0 TA with no problem.