Giving up on an Escape 19...

[escape artist]

Originally Posted by dbailey

We stopped at a Toyota dealer tonight (a good night for a test drive -- we had a good snow blow going through) and looked at the tacoma, highlander and venza. I think my tastes run more to the tacoma than the highlander. I expect the highlander has a more comfortable ride, but it seems to be optimized for moving lots of people, while I'm more interested in moving lots of stuff. The venza can be equipped to pull 3500lbs, but just comes across as the poor cousin to the highlander.

Now I just have to get over the fact that a well equipped tacoma costs more and has poorer fuel economy than an F-150...

Hi: dbailey...Should I say... check out a Nissan Frontier. They are less $$$'s than Taco's and just as good!!! IMHO. Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie

[DonM]

Doug,
I have owned 4 Ford SUV's, a Totota 4runner, and a Nissan Xterra currently. These trucks are all great fror trailering.
My current Xterra is rated at 5000# and pulls my heavily loaded / optioned 19 well. It is available basic and fits much better than a F150 in the garage. Check it out.

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by gocamp

I know the honda pilot 2WD is 3500 but the AWD touring is 4300 towing I think. You can double check if interested. Just another idea for the no truck route. Jeep grand cherokee V8 would do it too. Good Luck.

The 4WD is 4,500 lb towing, Ours does a great job pulling the 19 with ease.

I do have a pickup for work, but much prefer the flexibility of using an SUV for towing the trailer. A nicer runaround vehicle when not hooked up due to the covered storage, and slightly better fuel economy. Who knows, maybe when I retire and sell the big truck, I might want a small pickup, all depending on lifestyle. For the carrying capacity, a nice small utility trailer would do the job fine though.

[Arathar]

When I bought my 19' I already owned a Nissan Xterra. I found that it was underpowered even though rated at 5000lb. The gas mileage while towing was poor and not that great in every day use. Plus it was too small inside.

I replaced it with a Honda Pilot 4WD. I don't notice the 500 lb decrease in tow rating. It has more power than the Nissan and lots more interior room. I almost bought the Highlander. IMO it had less interior room but more power.

I expect to keep this trailer through multiple TVs and I am always looking at the balance between daily driving and vacation towing. Since I drive short distances daily, I am willing to use my TV. If I have to drive further everyday, I would likely buy a sedan for daily use and a older Yukon for towing. A friend went the Yukon route and while he gets poor daily mileage, towing doesn't hit him as badly.

[cpaharley2008]

Do not forget the Toyota FJ Cruiser....it pulls the 19' fine and has the larger v-6 motor.

[dbailey]

So I think I can officially change the title of this thread... I've seen a number of options that can pull a 19 that I can live with. Definitely not feeling so down about this. A lot of that comes from the positive attitude on this forum, so my thanks to everybody.

On the other hand, maybe I don't want to change the title. Thinking about smaller tow vehicles has forced us to think about smaller trailers, and we've recognized that for our style of trailering, there are certain definite advantages to giving up a bathroom. Recognizing this feels somewhat liberating. (On the other other hand, what we've done in the past isn't necessarily an indication of the future -- I would like to explore some more boon-docky camping in the future, and a black water tank would be useful for that.)

So what's on my list now? Well, the different Toyota's are winning by default, simply because I haven't looked beyond them yet. I'm aware that many consider the frontier a good alternative to the tacoma, so I will research that along with the colorado. And the highlander has competition in the pilot, explorer, traverse, etc. And there's a few others to look at such as the flex. Throw away my big truck spread sheet and start another one. So, back to the intertubes...

Again, thanks everybody!

[Jim Bennett]

Doug, I think you are over analyzing things....

....welcome to the club.

[dbailey]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

Doug, I think you are over analyzing things....

....welcome to the club.

Really? Me?

I freely acknowledge that I *like* to over analyze things. I'm a designer by nature, and I like to think through all the use cases ahead of time and try to find the optimal solution. What was happening here is that there isn't an optimal solution, and I was getting frustrating banging my head against the problem. Recognizing that there wasn't an optimal solution was a definite epiphany in the last couple of days, and has freed me from looking for the best solution. I'll settle for a good solution.

But you can bet I'll analyze that good solution to within an inch of its life! 8)

[dave macrae]

Doug, I don't know the numbers of the fuel mileage of the vehicles in question, but I do know that there is often a big difference in advertised fuel mileage and real world mileage. This also seems to be a area where peoples math skills seem a little questionable, I guess my sugestion would be to try and ask some honest owners of the vehicles on your short list what they truly get for mileage.

[Arathar]

I fully agree. I have recorded 23 mpg on the highway in my Pilot when not towing and 13 mpg while towing. That was kind of a surprise for me but that is the effect of overworking a 6 cylinder.

[thoer]

I too agree with Dave. For whatever reason, some vehicle's mpg drop precipitously when towing and others much less so. Part of it may well be due to different driving styles, but not all of it I believe.

[Jim Bennett]

With my Pilot, I average about a 25-30% drop in fuel economy towing the 19, depending upon terrain and wind conditions. While substantial, the difference is well made up for when not towing.

[dbailey]

Mileage numbers when towing are hard to work with because we don't have a ready source of reliable data.

I do like to look at published ratings. I don't assume they're a match for real world circumstances, but I do assume that if this vehicle is rated 1 l/100km better than that vehicle, it's likely going to perform *about* 1 l/100km better in the real world in normal city/highway conditions. Assume a vehicle life span of about 200,000km (given our past history with vehicles) and an average fuel cost of $2/l over the life of the vehicle (wild-assed guess), and 1 l/100km difference in rating costs or saves about $4000 over the life of the vehicle. Maybe worth a $2000 difference in up-front costs.

But yeah, towing performance is a completely different game. No reliable data to make apples-to-apples comparisons whatsoever. So I just ignore the problem...

[Jubal]

You should consider:
Will this be you primary vehicle ?
Will you be hauling passengers or materials when you are not towing ?
How often will you be towing ?
There is a trade off between buying a marginal towing vehicle and a vehicle that has a larger capacity. A tow vehicle with smaller engine may be best for overall use but is worked harder when towing, resulting in more engine and drive train wear and lower mileage. A larger engine may have lower overall mileage but less of a mileage drop when towing.
In 2011 I bought a Toyota Tundra (regular cab, long bed, 5.7L V8 engine, 2WD). I opted for a pickup as I frequently haul materials. This is not my primary vehicle and not everyone has this convenience. The truck I drove and hauled with was a 2006 Toyota Tundra (regular cab, 8' bed, 4.3 L V6, 2WD) prior to purchasing this truck. We have been towing a 28', 6000lb GVWR, stick built dual axle TT aprox. 8k miles per year driving from the midwest through the west and north to the Pacific Northwest. The average difference in mileage between the two trucks has been 4 mpg "when towing". The 2011 Tundra has better safety features, more horse power when needed in the mountains, a 6 spd transmission, and does not work as hard on upgrades (downshifts).
I preffered a larger engine (V8 rather than relying on a smaller (V6 turbo ecoboost) engine to provide the power when needed resulting in less engine wear. Fuel mileage may suffer somewhat but I purchase vehicles for the long haul (expect 2k miles before reolacement) .
I retired in 2012 as a Certified Master Auto Technician with Advanced Engine Repair and Performance Certification and this experience was the basis for my decision making process.
Whew, Jubal

[dbailey]

My situation: this will be my primary vehicle, used for commuting and run-about-town as well as our tow vehicle. For the next several years, mileage on the vehicle will typically be about 10K-15K/year "normal" use, and maybe 3K-5K/year towing. Once we get into full retirement, I expect those numbers to more-or-less reverse.

So in a sense this is a transition vehicle. It needs to do both reasonably well.

Or, we optimize for in town use with this vehicle and plan on trading it in when we retire, but I suspect that's not a good solution in terms of cost.

Hmmmm... just occurred to me... Or we optimize for in town use with this vehicle now, and it becomes my wife's primary around-town vehicle when she retires and we replace her current car with a vehicle optimized for towing. The timing is about right -- her car will be about 12 years old when she retires (according to current plans, at least) -- still a little young to get rid of, but not excessively so.

[dave macrae]

I would agree that different vehicles drop fuel mileage at different rates when towing, but I would disagree with one statement that doug made about the real world ratings being proportional to the advertised, I have seen several cases of this not being true, I have been a Gm tech for 18 years and have seen several cases to proove my point. Thats why its always nice to talk to a honest owner and get real feed back. I know this can be difficult.

[dbailey]

yeah, can't say I'm surprised that assumption is wrong. I'm still going to hope it's somewhat correct, simply because there's no alternative source of information to base a comparison on. I suspect it's more likely correct (or closer to correct) for similar vehicles or for vehicles from the same manufacturer than for different types of vehicles from different manufacturers.

<edited to note> Talking to honest owners doesn't really help, since everybody drives differently. I suspect the lack of controlled circumstances talking to different people is a bigger error factor than any manufacturer fudging of numbers.

But, noted; take the numbers with a big grain of salt.

[Jim Bennett]

Well, I can tell you that with pulling the 19 with my F250 with a Powerstroke diesel, my fuel economy drops very little at all, though was not all that great to start with. Towing though, especially through the mountains, I get better fuel economy from the F250 than I do from the Pilot.

[Dave Walter]

Trying to be honest here. My 2011 Toyota FJ Cruiser gets almost dead on the factory reported mileage when not towing (about 19 mpg Imp city and 25 mpg Imp highway). Although I have not yet towed my Escape 19', I have experienced about a 20 - 25 percent drop in gas mileage when towing a somewhat lighter trailer than the 19'. Of course, I have in the past continued to drive at fairly high speeds when towing (typically 110 - 120 kph), but I will make an attempt to slow down a bit with the 19'. Speaking of manufacturer's claims being wrong, my wife's 2010 Chev Equinox gets nothing close to the manufacturers estimated fuel consumption (typically about 25% poorer than manufacturer's claims).

[gabeck]

The Liberty gets 8.7 K per L avg. ..... towing the Escape 15 it's down to 6.9 K per L avg. that pretty much just in the mtns. hope for better in the prairies....