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Old 11-28-2016, 08:22 PM   #21
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The previous post made a response to my post look like I had written it.

The relevant part of my post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
Given the sailplane trailers I've seen, I expect those have a lot of rear overhang and are very low, both compared to an Escape.
... and the response:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFDavis50 View Post
Yes, and if you lower the nose too much the vertical fin can stick up into the laminar airstream and start acting like a wing causing sway.
Now there's a problem travel trailers don't normally have!
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Old 11-28-2016, 08:27 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
It would make more sense to me to back the trailer onto some blocks...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFDavis50 View Post
I assume I would have to do that but I would still have 2 1/2 additional inches with the lift. For me the issues are:
1. Do I want to pay the additional $300.00 CAD?
2. Will there be much of a mpg penalty or will it even be a measurable difference with the 5.0 TA?
...
  1. I wouldn't pay for the lift kit, not because I don't think it's a poor value, just because I don't think I would want the trailer to be taller.
  2. While the lift would add to frontal area fully exposed to airflow, I won't guess how much it will matter. It would be interesting if someone went to the trouble of doing coast-down tests with and without the lift, but few people would be in a position to do that (that is, would be adding or removing a lift).
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Old 11-29-2016, 10:59 AM   #23
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F150 2WD clearance questions

Thanks to Bob, Brian, & Jim for your input to this forum.

We have a 2014 5.0TA, which we’ve been towing with a 2007 Nissan Frontier with no problems, but have felt we would be better off with more payload and have ordered an F150 Supercab, 2WD, 6½’ bed, 2.7 Ecoboost with 2,100# payload. According to Ford’s website, the height of the open tailgate on this configuration is 34.8” and I’m assuming this will be the height of the bed. (I can’t measure one at a local dealer as none stock 2WDs.) The website also shows the box sides to be 21.4” above the bed, which would put them at 56.2” above the ground.

We will be installing a B&W Turnover Ball Gooseneck and attaching the Andersen Ultimate Hitch. The lowest ball height is between 16-3/8” & 16-3/4” depending on which of their spec sheets is correct. I had been pondering whether or not we would need to raise the 5.0’s pin box from its current middle position to the highest in order to get the trailer level. The height of the top of the 5th-wheel hitch in the Frontier is 50” and the bed sides slightly less.

Reading this thread has made me question this setup’s F150 bed sides clearance. Will we need to raise the trailer? Can this be done after-market? I’m also curious what you think the weight of the trailer’s pin box is and whether I would need help to raise it.

Your thoughts will be appreciated,

David
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Old 11-29-2016, 04:21 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D&R_MA View Post
Thanks to Bob, Brian, & Jim for your input to this forum.

We have a 2014 5.0TA, which we’ve been towing with a 2007 Nissan Frontier with no problems, but have felt we would be better off with more payload and have ordered an F150 Supercab, 2WD, 6½’ bed, 2.7 Ecoboost with 2,100# payload. According to Ford’s website, the height of the open tailgate on this configuration is 34.8” and I’m assuming this will be the height of the bed. (I can’t measure one at a local dealer as none stock 2WDs.) The website also shows the box sides to be 21.4” above the bed, which would put them at 56.2” above the ground.

We will be installing a B&W Turnover Ball Gooseneck and attaching the Andersen Ultimate Hitch. The lowest ball height is between 16-3/8” & 16-3/4” depending on which of their spec sheets is correct. I had been pondering whether or not we would need to raise the 5.0’s pin box from its current middle position to the highest in order to get the trailer level. The height of the top of the 5th-wheel hitch in the Frontier is 50” and the bed sides slightly less.

Reading this thread has made me question this setup’s F150 bed sides clearance. Will we need to raise the trailer? Can this be done after-market? I’m also curious what you think the weight of the trailer’s pin box is and whether I would need help to raise it.

Your thoughts will be appreciated,

David
I think this is the same setup as Donna D; might PM her for details.
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Old 11-29-2016, 04:28 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D&R_MA View Post
We have a 2014 5.0TA, which we’ve been towing with a 2007 Nissan Frontier with no problems, but have felt we would be better off with more payload and have ordered an F150 Supercab, 2WD, 6½’ bed, 2.7 Ecoboost with 2,100# payload. According to Ford’s website, the height of the open tailgate on this configuration is 34.8” and I’m assuming this will be the height of the bed.
The body builder's guide (which covers lots of variants of the truck) says 33.9" (empty) to 28.3" (fully loaded) for the SuperCab 2WD longer box (156.8" wheelbase) with 6950 pound GVWR and stock tires (P245/70R-17)... so sure, that seems reasonable.
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Old 11-29-2016, 04:30 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by tractors1 View Post
I think this is the same setup as Donna D; might PM her for details.
I believe that Donna has the previous generation of F-150.
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Old 11-29-2016, 04:30 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by D&R_MA View Post
We will be installing a B&W Turnover Ball Gooseneck and attaching the Andersen Ultimate Hitch. The lowest ball height is between 16-3/8” & 16-3/4” depending on which of their spec sheets is correct. I had been pondering whether or not we would need to raise the 5.0’s pin box from its current middle position to the highest in order to get the trailer level. The height of the top of the 5th-wheel hitch in the Frontier is 50” ...
My guess is that the 16.35" (or about 16-3/8”) is right, but in any case you need to add half an inch for the coupler block, plus a bit more depending on the pin shape (the coupler block has set screws which push it away from the pin box plate until it hits the bottom of the groove in the pin), but as Jim said that's essentially 17" for the whole thing. Add that to about 35" (bed height plus whatever you have for a box liner) to get 52", then settle down at least a couple of inches under load and it looks to me like you're likely to be closer to the 50" height of the current Frontier setup (assuming that's a loaded height), than to the height a couple inches higher which would result from raising the pin box.

If you do need more height under the front of the trailer, and don't want to change the pin box setting, the Andersen Ultimate's next step up is a less-than-two-inch step up with no effort.
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Old 11-29-2016, 04:32 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by D&R_MA View Post
The website also shows the [F-150] box sides to be 21.4” above the bed, which would put them at 56.2” above the ground.
...
The height of the top of the 5th-wheel hitch in the Frontier is 50” and the bed sides slightly less.

Reading this thread has made me question this setup’s F150 bed sides clearance. Will we need to raise the trailer? Can this be done after-market? I’m also curious what you think the weight of the trailer’s pin box is and whether I would need help to raise it.
With the F-150 box depth of 21.4" (confirmed in the body manual), the hitch set to 17" will be four inches below the box sides.

It's interesting that the current hitch sticks up slightly above the bed sides, while in the new truck it will not, but I still don't see a problem. With a bed floor height of 35" the top of the box sides would be right at the Escape limit of 56", but the height drops under load so there should be a couple more inches to spare... and remember that the 56" allows room for movement.

This 5.0TA has the leaf-spring and beam axle suspension setup. If it is currently set for the lower height (the leaf springs run under the axle beams), then it can be raised about four inches at minimal cost other than the labour, which should be easy for any mechanical shop (auto mechanics or RV techs).

Someone in the forum has raised the pin box, and so handled the weight of the lower part; maybe they can remind us what it weighed. I would use a jack (such as a hydraulic floor jack, in the floor of the pickup) to hold it up while unbolted.
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Old 11-29-2016, 04:39 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by D&R_MA View Post
I’m also curious what you think the weight of the trailer’s pin box is and whether I would need help to raise it.

Your thoughts will be appreciated,

David
I've considered doing just this, but haven't as yet. Was thinking I'd hitch the trailer to the truck then remove the pin box bolts and use the front legs to raise or lower the trailer in relation to the pin box, In my case lower the trailer one bolt hole. If it works out as easy as it sounds the weight of the pin box wouldn't matter. Don't know if this would work with the Anderson.
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Old 11-29-2016, 06:41 PM   #30
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Was thinking I'd hitch the trailer to the truck then remove the pin box bolts and use the front legs to raise or lower the trailer in relation to the pin box, In my case lower the trailer one bolt hole. If it works out as easy as it sounds the weight of the pin box wouldn't matter. Don't know if this would work with the Anderson.
I think that sounds like a good plan, if you have room to work around the pin box in the hitched position. With a normal fifth-wheel hitch, the lower pin box will tend to tilt back, but that's probably manageable. With the Andersen it could tilt freely side-to-side as well, but with the two parts of the pin box never completely separated, the upper pin box section will keep the lower section from tilting to the side.
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Old 11-29-2016, 07:37 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
My guess is that the 16.35" (or about 16-3/8”) is right, but in any case you need to add half an inch for the coupler block, plus a bit more depending on the pin shape (the coupler block has set screws which push it away from the pin box plate until it hits the bottom of the groove in the pin), but as Jim said that's essentially 17" for the whole thing. Add that to about 35" (bed height plus whatever you have for a box liner) to get 52", then settle down at least a couple of inches under load and it looks to me like you're likely to be closer to the 50" height of the current Frontier setup (assuming that's a loaded height), than to the height a couple inches higher which would result from raising the pin box.

If you do need more height under the front of the trailer, and don't want to change the pin box setting, the Andersen Ultimate's next step up is a less-than-two-inch step up with no effort.
The 5th-wheel hitch height in the Frontier is actually unloaded as the hitch is currently out of the bed and I added the two heights to get the total. Wouldn't raising the pin box lower the trailer nose? The reason I have thought of doing so was to keep the trailer level, but now I'm concerned about that causing there to be too little space above the F150 bed sides.
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Old 11-29-2016, 07:47 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
My guess is that the 16.35" (or about 16-3/8”) is right, but in any case you need to add half an inch for the coupler block, plus a bit more depending on the pin shape (the coupler block has set screws which push it away from the pin box plate until it hits the bottom of the groove in the pin), but as Jim said that's essentially 17" for the whole thing. Add that to about 35" (bed height plus whatever you have for a box liner) to get 52", then settle down at least a couple of inches under load and it looks to me like you're likely to be closer to the 50" height of the current Frontier setup (assuming that's a loaded height), than to the height a couple inches higher which would result from raising the pin box.

If you do need more height under the front of the trailer, and don't want to change the pin box setting, the Andersen Ultimate's next step up is a less-than-two-inch step up with no effort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
With the F-150 box depth of 21.4" (confirmed in the body manual), the hitch set to 17" will be four inches below the box sides.

It's interesting that the current hitch sticks up slightly above the bed sides, while in the new truck it will not, but I still don't see a problem. With a bed floor height of 35" the top of the box sides would be right at the Escape limit of 56", but the height drops under load so there should be a couple more inches to spare... and remember that the 56" allows room for movement.

This 5.0TA has the leaf-spring and beam axle suspension setup. If it is currently set for the lower height (the leaf springs run under the axle beams), then it can be raised about four inches at minimal cost other than the labour, which should be easy for any mechanical shop (auto mechanics or RV techs).

Someone in the forum has raised the pin box, and so handled the weight of the lower part; maybe they can remind us what it weighed. I would use a jack (such as a hydraulic floor jack, in the floor of the pickup) to hold it up while unbolted.
The box sides on the Frontier are 18" above the bed and the current hitch is also 18" high, but sitting on the rails lifts it slightly higher than the sides. The F150 sides 3.4" higher when compared to the bed height.
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Old 11-29-2016, 07:50 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
I think that sounds like a good plan, if you have room to work around the pin box in the hitched position. With a normal fifth-wheel hitch, the lower pin box will tend to tilt back, but that's probably manageable. With the Andersen it could tilt freely side-to-side as well, but with the two parts of the pin box never completely separated, the upper pin box section will keep the lower section from tilting to the side.
I agree that this would be a good method, if we decide to move the pins box.

Thank you both for your thoughts,

David
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Old 11-30-2016, 12:19 AM   #34
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The 5th-wheel hitch height in the Frontier is actually unloaded as the hitch is currently out of the bed and I added the two heights to get the total.
Ah, so the loaded height will be lower, and the F-150 with Andersen Ultimate might be a couple of inches higher (to hitch plate) than the Frontier with its current hitch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D&R_MA View Post
Wouldn't raising the pin box lower the trailer nose?
Yes - I was assuming that your concern would be that the F-150 would be taller, so you would want to raise the pin box to bring the nose back down.
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Old 11-30-2016, 11:21 AM   #35
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after reading this thread......getting a fifth wheel setup for the tug and trailer combination mated correctly seems to requires a lot more thought...

although after seeing a new Escape 5.0TA up close recently the comment was made that a fifth wheel trailer may be more difficult to casually steal for that reason and others.
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Old 11-30-2016, 11:30 AM   #36
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Not sure how much a thief thinks about having the correct set-up.
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Old 11-30-2016, 12:02 PM   #37
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Not that complicated

[QUOTE=freespirit;170579]after reading this thread......getting a fifth wheel setup for the tug and trailer combination mated correctly seems to requires a lot more thought...
/QUOTE]

It isn't really that complicated when buying new. You tell the trailer manufacturer what model truck you have and they will set up the trailer to match it. Tug does have to be a pickup. My several questions come from changing trucks and hitches simultaneously after buying used.
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Old 11-30-2016, 02:05 PM   #38
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after reading this thread......getting a fifth wheel setup for the tug and trailer combination mated correctly seems to requires a lot more thought...
I agree with David that it doesn't need to be complicated. I'm sure that most people just buy any trailer they want as long as it doesn't seem to be too heavy for the truck, buy any truck that someone convinces them has enough capacity, let the trailer dealer set the pin box and/or jack up the trailer suspension to fit the truck, and buy whatever hitch is cheap enough and recommended by a buddy then let the hitch dealer set the hitch height to match.

The discussion of details results from people taking an interesting in having the best possible setup, wanting to use unusual components (such as the Andersen Ultimate) to get specific features that they desire, or choosing to do some of the work themselves. The same thing happens with any product: enthusiasts get into a level of detail that most people don't care about, while most owners just blindly use the product with adequate results.

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... although after seeing a new Escape 5.0TA up close recently the comment was made that a fifth wheel trailer may be more difficult to casually steal for that reason and others.
Fifth-wheel hitches are well standardized: a 48" hitch height works for almost everything and there is only one size of pin. A reasonably intelligent thief (I know... that's an oxymoron) would use a truck with low box sides, not worry about whether the trailer was nose-up or nose-down, and have no trouble. It is true that far more random jerks have pickup trucks with conventional hitches than have pickup trucks with fifth-wheel hitches.
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