Honda Ridgeline Revival

[bisonbill]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Three possibilities occur to me:

1. The illustrated rating may be only a pre-production example, and not the same as the final rating.
2. The new rating may be compliant with SAE standard J2807, while the old one may not have been - the vehicle may now be more capable, but with a lower rating due to a much more stringent standard.
3. Priorities may have changed, and so Honda may have designed the vehicle to improve other aspects (ride? unloaded efficiency?) at the expense of towing capacity.

I don't think we'll know if it is one of these - or something else entirely - until final ratings are published.

I'm hoping for #1, but I think it's #3. We'll know in a few months. I'm not camping for the next few months anyway.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Rossue

I'm not understanding how a front-wheel drive platform CUV(crossover utility vehicle, not SUV)...

Originally Posted by David H

The Touareg is not front wheel drive its permanent all wheel drive. It has a longitudinally mounted engine and transmission mated with a Torsen central differential which nominally distributes power 42% to the front wheels and 58% to the rear wheels. The Torsen differential is torque sensing and distributes power as required between a maximum of 60% front with 40% rear and a maximum of 80% rear with 20% front.

David has a good point that I glossed over, mostly because I was thinking of the general category rather than specifically the Touareg.

The first two generations of Touareg/Q7/Cayenne do indeed have a drivetrain which is not shared with any "car". It is quite similar to a traditional truck or SUV layout, with a longitudinal engine followed by a longitudinal transmission then a "transfer case" with outputs through propeller shafts to front and rear final drive units (bevel ring-and-pinion with differential). The biggest difference is that the parts (engine, transmission, transfer case, and front final drive) are all more closely integrated, rather than being the "seemingly random parts mounted in the same vehicle" effect which is common.

I agree with David - there is nothing "front wheel drive" about this - unlike the Honda Pilot/Ridgeline, which have a transverse engine in a layout typical of front-drive systems, and which drive only the front wheels until rear traction is needed. Not that the Ridgeline solution is wrong - it's fundamentally different.

The Audi Q7 has moved on to a new platform (MLB 2); I assume that the Touareg and Cayenne will follow. The general layout remains the same, and now the transmission is the HP8 from ZF - the same 8-speed transmission used in (among many others) Ram 1500 trucks. Although this transmission is available in a range of torque capacities, the Q7 must get a relatively heavy-duty version to handle the 443 lb-ft of torque output of this model's turbodiesel.

I think the "torque sensing" implication of the Torsen name is misleading, but these worm-gear differentials do have a nice characteristic for this application: they deliver more torque to the slower-turning output, so (in the absence of any tire slippage) as soon as the vehicle starts turning, the rear axle gets more torque. The limit on torque distribution is inherent in the differential design: the ratio between torque output to the faster-moving side (less torque) and to the slower-moving side (more torque) is typically about 3:1 for worm-gear differentials (multiplied by the normal bias in the case of planetary configurations such as the Q7). The HMMWV (a.k.a. HumVee, civilian version Hummer H1) uses Torsen differentials in both axles. In vehicles more relevant to Escapes, Toyota uses a Torsen centre differential of this same type (planetary and so not 50:50 front:rear split) in some 4Runner versions and other related models.

[Brian B-P]

Just in case Honda fans need a fix...

I saw an item about the 2017 Ridgeline in a Car and Driver magazine in the dentist's office yesterday, and checking today it seems that they are giving it regular attention:
Dec 18: 2017 Honda Ridgeline Backs Its Thing Up for the Camera
Jan: 2017 Honda Ridgeline: The Crossover of Pickups Returns
Feb 10: Honda Trucks Up the 2017 Ridgeline Pickup with Genuine Accessories

Plus a couple of appearances albums:
The 12 Cars You Must See from the 2016 Detroit Auto Show (photos #12 and #13)
Hot Metal: The Most Anticipated New Cars of 2016 (photo #15)

[Brian B-P]

I registered with Honda USA for Ridgeline updates, and this arrived today:

The facts are in. The all-new 2017 Ridgeline will start at $29,475 MSRP[1], boasting an impressive 26-mpg highway rating[2]. The truck packs some serious tech into its all-new styling. Be first to know when Ridgeline is available—sign up for notification now.

[1] MSRP excluding tax, license, registration, $900.00 destination charge and options. Dealer prices may vary.

[2] 19 city/26 highway/22 combined mpg rating for 2WD models. 18 city/25 highway/21 combined mpg rating for AWD models. Based on 2017 EPA mileage ratings. Use for comparison purposes only. Your mileage will vary depending on how you drive and maintain your vehicle, driving conditions and other factors.

I note that...

• towing numbers are still not provided
• availability of 2WD is implicitly confirmed
• AWD costs about 5% in fuel economy (not towing, of course)
• The base may be US$30K, but there is a photo (we've already seen those) with this note on it, illustrating the expected cost variation:
  

  Ridgeline RTL-E shown in Modern Steel Metallic. Shown at $41,370 MSRP

[rbryan4]

Good summary Brian. I note that the mileage numbers they state are identical to my F150 2WD 2.7L Ecoboost V6. We'll see.

[walloe]

The towing numbers are 3500# for the 2WD, and 5000# for the AWD.

[Greggo]

Originally Posted by walloe

The towing numbers are 3500# for the 2WD, and 5000# for the AWD.

Hi Alice. Find that Escape yet?

Greg

[walloe]

Nope, sold the Scamp, bought a 2015 T@B clamshell last year. Getting the Escape was out of my $$ range and they quit building the 15'. It wouldn't fit in the garage, so I would have had to invest about $5K to build another driveway, pad and fencing to park it. The T@B gives me the storage space I wanted for cooking, the kitchen is in the clamshell to cook outside, stores in the garage and can be towed by the RAV. When are you moving to St. George?

[Greggo]

There's fiberglass somewhere on a T@b, hope to see you at a rally soon. No desert for us, we decided to stay at the coast.

Greg

[Brian B-P]

The notice which I received (because I signed up for updates) didn't say much, and the Honda Canada website has nothing beyond the description from the car show round, but there is now a press kit:
2017 Honda Ridgeline Press Kit - Overview

These are the only two towing references from that material:

... robust cargo-hauling and towing capabilities, including a class-leading maximum 1,584 pound (718.5 kg) payload capacity (varies by trim) and up to 5,000-pound (2,268 kg) towing (RT AWD).

All models also come standard with a Class III towing hitch and AWD modes add a 7-pin wiring connector.

That would presumably be the source of (or confirmation for) these values:

Originally Posted by walloe

The towing numbers are 3500# for the 2WD, and 5000# for the AWD.

The press info does not confirm the 3500 lb value, but I think anyone towing a travel trailer such as an Escape should assume that they must get the AWD and possibly an elevated trim or equipment level.

Other towing information - such as the hitch weight limit, use of weight-distributing hitches, GVWR and GCWR - is still lacking. I don't think most of this will be available until the actual owner's manual is released.

[rbryan4]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

The press info does not confirm the 3500 lb value, but I think anyone towing a travel trailer such as an Escape should assume that they must get the AWD and possibly an elevated trim or equipment level.

True enough. With a 1500 lbs+ payload capacity, it's a 3/4 ton truck, even though it's considered "lightweight". Considering it's a 3.5L V6 as well, I wouldn't consider a max towing capacity of 5000 lbs (if you add AWD) to be "robust" - but that's just me.

[blhvet]

I would love one, but I've made the mistake before of buying a pickup and having to trade it in because it just wasn't practical for 2 big dogs, gear, and groceries. Guess I'll have to keep looking at the new "Now I look like everyone else" Pilot. Does anyone here have a new Pilot?

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by blhvet

I would love one, but I've made the mistake before of buying a pickup and having to trade it in because it just wasn't practical for 2 big dogs, gear, and groceries. Guess I'll have to keep looking at the new "Now I look like everyone else" Pilot.

The Ridgeline is essentially the pickup version of the Pilot... or the Pilot is the SUV version of the Ridgeline.

I think the appeal of the Ridgeline is that for someone who likes the Pilot this is the version with a longer wheelbase and an open box instead of closed cargo area. If a closed body works better for you than an open box, then an SUV is certainly the straightforward answer.

This is just like choosing between a Chevrolet Silverado versus a Yukon, a Ford F-150 versus an Expedition, or a Toyota Tundra versus a Sequoia.


Dogs can go in crates in the pickup box, and are safer there... although they don't get heat or air conditioning that way.

[rbryan4]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Dogs can go in crates in the pickup box, and are safer there... although they don't get heat or air conditioning that way.

I read that sentence to Coco. She whined a bit then went under the bed.

[float5]

Originally Posted by rbryan4

I read that sentence to Coco. She whined a bit then went under the bed.

Coco is smart. No self-respecting dog goes for that nonsense.

[Iowa Dave]

There was a famous guy, I can't remember his name, who put a dog in a cage on top of his station wagon and went on vacation. He had a car full of passengers and was trying to MITT igate the situation.
Dave

[blhvet]

Yeah, unfortunately, either the dogs or the groceries would freeze in the winter... And now I'm up to 3 dogs weighing about 270 lbs all together...

[Brian B-P]

I visited a lure coursing event; it looked like all the dogs rode in crates, although mostly inside vehicles rather than in truck boxes. Sled dogs and hunting dogs typically ride in dog boxes (multi-compartment crates) mounted on trucks. Pampered pets are, of course, another matter...

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Dogs can go in crates in the pickup box, and are safer there... although they don't get heat or air conditioning that way.

Originally Posted by rbryan4

I read that sentence to Coco. She whined a bit then went under the bed.

Bailey's crate is inside of my hatchback car or the van... but I'm sure he would jump in happily if it were in the back of a truck, in any season. He's a northern mutt dog (reportedly mostly Border Collie and German Shepherd), and weather generally doesn't concern him.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by rbryan4

True enough. With a 1500 lbs+ payload capacity, it's a 3/4 ton truck, even though it's considered "lightweight". Considering it's a 3.5L V6 as well, I wouldn't consider a max towing capacity of 5000 lbs (if you add AWD) to be "robust" - but that's just me.

I agree that the payload is substantial and that 5000 pounds is not up to the trailer towing capacity expected of comparable vehicles (Tacoma, Frontier, Colorado).

For those with turbocharged engines, a reminder that this 3.5L is not turbocharged; it is equivalent to the lowest-powered engine choice in an F-150. That corresponding configuration (SuperCab 4x4, with 3.5L Ti-VCT V6) of F-150 is rated for 5000 pounds (with 3.55:1 final drive ratio) to 7200 pounds of towing capacity (with 3.73:1)... so the Ridgeline rating is not unreasonable or unprecedented.

It will be interesting to see how much the Ridgeline can carry while towing a trailer. Pickups are usually rated for trailer weight with nothing but a driver in the truck, while some vehicles (such as our Toyota Sienna) can tow the maximum trailer in addition to half a ton of passengers and cargo. That sort of detail is important to usability, and unknown at this point for the Ridgeline.

[Brian B-P]

Full specifications are out:
(only for AWD, since only the AWD would likely be of interest to anyone towing an Escape)
Dimensions

• Wheelbase: 125.2 in (versus 111 in for the Pilot)
• Length: 210.0 in (versus 194.5 in for the Pilot)
• Height (in): 70.8
• Width (in): 78.6
• Track (in): Front/Rear 66.1/66.0
• Ground Clearance (unladen) (in): 7.28/7.87
• Clearance Angles, Approach/Breakover/Departure: 20.1°/ 19.6°/22.1°

Weights and Weight Ratings

• Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) (lbs): 9986
• Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) (lbs): 6019
• Curb Weight (lbs): 4431 to 4515 (depending on trim)
• Weight Distribution (front/rear %): 57.6/42.4
• Total Payload Capacity (lbs): 1584 to 1499 (depending on trim)
• Towing Capacity (lbs): 5000

selected other details

• Tires: 245/60R18 105H
• Engine Type: 3.5L V-6
• Displacement: 3471 cc
• Horsepower (SAE net): 280 @ 6000 rpm
• Torque (SAE net): 262 lb-ft @ 4700 rpm
• Redline: 6800 rpm
• 6-Speed Automatic Transmission

These are generally similar to a Pilot, except that the Ridgeline is substantially longer overall and in wheelbase. The engine is identical; probably everything from the driver's seat forward is probably functionally identical. The Ridgeline does not get the 9-speed transmission which is found in some Pilot trim levels; it has the same gear ratios and final drive ratio as the 6-speed Pilot. The Ridgeline is a couple hundred pounds heavier than the Pilot.

Some notes from a quick analysis:

• With a 9986 pound GCWR and 4515 pound curb weight, a 5000-pound trailer would leave 471 pounds for options, occupants and cargo... marginal, so Escape 21' owners would want to avoid loading the trailer up to its limit. On the other hand, many vehicles have only a driver allowance left when towing the maximum trailer; this is better.
• With 6019 GVWR and 4515 pound curb weight, a 600 pound tongue weight (12% of a 5000 pound trailer) would leave 904 pounds for options, occupants and cargo... GCWR, rather than GVWR (or payload) would be the limitation for trailer weight.
• Axle loads at the curb (ready to go but no occupants, cargo, or trailer) would be 2600 pounds front and 1915 pounds rear; adding 500 pounds to the hitch would pry about 35% of that off of the front axle and so add 135% of that to the rear axle (with no WD system), resulting in 2425 pounds on the front and 2590 pounds on the rear. Weight of passengers would add to both axles; weight of cargo in the box would add to the rear axle. As long as the rear Gross Axle Weight Rating is reasonable (the tires are good for at least 3670 pounds), the load distribution may be quite reasonable without resorting to add-on hardware.
• The wheelbase 14.2 inches longer the Pilot, and the length is 15.5 inches longer than the Pilot, so (assuming that the front is the same) the rear overhang is only slightly longer than the SUV.