Is the V6 tacoma enough truck for the 21

[jrb1947]

I believe the difference is two sets of injectors rather than two sets of valves. One set of injectors provides direct injection and the other is port injection. There is one set of valves; however, that set operates in two modes. During otto cycle, the intake valve closes at the bottom of the intake stroke. This results in a maximum amount of fuel air mixture to ignite. At the bottom of the power stroke, there is wasted pressure inside the cylinder. In Atkinson cycle, the intake valve stays open during part of the compression stroke. This results in a smaller fuel air mixture. This smaller load results in lower pressure at the end of the power stroke which extracts more energy providing better fuel economy but less torque.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

The new 3.6 motor uses the Atkinson method which produces less torque than the older 4.0 motor, according to everything I have read. I had the 4.0 in my FJ and it was fine towing the 19, however the 21 was too heavy for the rear end.

The difference between the 4.0 & 3.5 torque specifications is 1 ft lb (2015 4.0 = 266 ft lbs, 2016 3.5 = 265 ft lbs). While the new engine rates torque at a higher RPM, (4600 RPM vs 4000 RPM for the older 4.0.) you will never feel the difference of 1 ft lb, although you will notice the higher RPM.

When towing the 17, while the manual shift selector is in 5th gear, it spends most of the time at 60 MPH when not driving on flats in 4th (5th & 6th are overdrives).

[arniesea]

Originally Posted by jrb1947

I believe the difference is two sets of injectors rather than two sets of valves. One set of injectors provides direct injection and the other is port injection. There is one set of valves; however, that set operates in two modes. During otto cycle, the intake valve closes at the bottom of the intake stroke. This results in a maximum amount of fuel air mixture to ignite. At the bottom of the power stroke, there is wasted pressure inside the cylinder. In Atkinson cycle, the intake valve stays open during part of the compression stroke. This results in a smaller fuel air mixture. This smaller load results in lower pressure at the end of the power stroke which extracts more energy providing better fuel economy but less torque.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle

Quite Right! Thanks for the correction. I knew that but misspoke. That will teach me to respond to posts at 3:50 AM when I can't sleep!

[arniesea]

Jon, Did I see somewhere that you have a new 21" on order? Do you have a completion date yet? As a new person to the Escape world (But not to trailer camping) I have really enjoyed your thoughtful, insightful contributions. It will be very interesting to hear how your 21' tows with the new generation Tacoma.

Thanks again for all the experience you share on this forum.

Arnie

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by arniesea

Jon, Did I see somewhere that you have a new 21" on order? Do you have a completion date yet? As a new person to the Escape world (But not to trailer camping) I have really enjoyed your thoughtful, insightful contributions. It will be very interesting to hear how your 21' tows with the new generation Tacoma.

Thanks again for all the experience you share on this forum.

Arnie

You can be sure I will let the forum know! As to when, if they don't move my date up, it will be October 4th, but I'm hoping I can pick it up a couple of weeks earlier so I can make the Fall NOG the weekend of the 5th at Silver Falls, OR.

[thoer]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

You can be sure I will let the forum know! As to when, if they don't move my date up, it will be October 4th, but I'm hoping I can pick it up a couple of weeks earlier so I can make the Fall NOG the weekend of the 5th at Silver Falls, OR.

Jon, I'm betting and hoping you will get it quite a bit sooner than that with those increased production numbers Reace talked about.

[Greg A]

I'm betting Jon will get his trailer mid-August...

[Great Eggstrications]

I tow a 2015 19' Escape with a 2012 Toyota 4Runner Trail, and offer a few tidbits that might be useful to the OP.

One of my main concerns was with the transmission, the Aisin 5-speed automatic A750E (2wd) and A750F (4wd). They're the same transmission except that the rear end casting on the A750F accommodates the 4wd transfer case. I believe that the OP's Tacoma uses the same transmission, which, as with all automatics, is susceptible to overheating when stressed. My 4Runner has the usual AT cooler built into the coolant radiator - no auxiliary cooler - but based on the ATF temps I was seeing on my ScanGauge, it is woefully inadequate, e.g. going up Stevens Pass in the Washington Cascades, towing lightly loaded on a 70 degree day with a 2,000 lb trailer, I was seeing the ATF pan temperature hitting 230 degrees and climbing rapidly. I added a B&M 70264 cooler, and although it didn't fully resolve the issue, it did lower the temperature by 20-25 degrees. On warm days while not towing anything, without the cooler I was seeing ATF temps up to 230 degrees on the passes in the Washington North Cascades. There is an interesting thread on a 4Runner forum pertaining to this issue:

www.toyota-4runner.org/general-discussions/117854-transmission-temps-observations-revelation-4.html

Looking around on the web, the consensus seems to be that anything much over 230 degrees is starting to degrade the ATF:

http://www.txchange.com/heatchrt.htm

The good news is that the A750 tranny has been around for a number of years (since 2003), is used in 4Runners, Tacomas, Tundras, and various Lexii, and seems to have a good reputation - as long as it is treated nicely. The SAE has a technical paper available, released at the introduction of the A750 tranny, which is viewable in its entirety for $27.00, but the free preview of the first few pages specifies that its torque capacity is 500 N-M - that's 368 lb-ft to you and me - and given that the 4.0 liter V-6 produces 278 ft-lb of torque, we're well below the tranny's torque "limit".

Toyota's New Five-Speed Automatic Transmission A750E/A750F for RWD Vehicles

A few relevant points: Generally keep the tranny in S4 to keep the torque converter locked and the ATF running cooler; use lower gears and keep the revs up (seems like the pump that circulates the ATF through the cooler is driven by the input side of the tranny so is related to engine rpm); if mounting a tranny cooler, position it close to the coolant radiator so air goes through it (not around it) and so that air will be sucked through the cooler when stopped or going slowly; and use fuel injection hose clamps. It sounds like Tacomas - at least when equipped with the Towing Package - come with a factory auxiliary tranny cooler, but it would be prudent to monitor the ATF temps in any case.

Engine-wise, I think that the 4.0 V-6 provides adequate power, at least for our 19': the trailer is 2,900 lbs empty and dry, 3,200 lbs loaded, and as much as 3,700 lbs depending on how full the tanks are; the tongue weight is around 280 lbs. Just keep the revs up and remind yourself that patience is a virtue.

According to the Escape web site, the 19' weights are 256 tongue and 2950 total dry lbs, and the 21' are 360 and 3140. The 4Runner has towing weight limits of 500 / 5,000 lbs tongue / gross weight, and we went with the 19' in part to keep the tongue weight down, not so much due to the 500 lb limit, but to keep weight off the rear suspension. The 4Runner Trail Edition sits high at the rear, but due to the soft rear springs - like the Tacoma - it drooped in the rear more that I wanted, so I bolted on a set of Timbren rear bump stops / helper springs, and now when hitched up it sits dead level. These are the same theory as the Sumo Springs mentioned previously in this thread. Got them for $164 in late 2013, but they're now up to $214 on Amazon. I preferred these over air bags - way easier to install, and less to go wrong. In over 5,000 miles of towing, I have felt no need for a WDH, and am happy to avoid the extra tongue weight.

Lastly, I had some concern with the short wheelbase of the 4Runner with regards to trailer sway. Our previous Chalet Alpine A-Frame trailer had some issues with sway, especially in crosswinds. The 19' Escape has never shown any tendency to sway, I think largely due to the dual axles and the consequent inherent tendency to resist sway. In a run from the east side of the Salton Sea to Anza-Borrego S.P., we were doing a steady 60 mph in conditions that included 40-50 mph crosswinds. When hit with larger gusts, the entire tow vehicle / trailer might displace left or right maybe 8" or so, but it was always as a single unit - no independent motion between the two.

So... My vote is that the V-6 Tacoma would be "enough truck" for the 21' Escape, given that it's just a couple hundred lbs more than the 19', and I'm more than happy towing my 19' with the 4Runner. Just get a good brake controller and keep the trailer brakes well adjusted.

[Bill and Earline]

An exceptionally well written article. You should post more often.
We towed over 20,000 miles with our 2003 V-6 4Runner, which we still have and enjoy. The ScanGuage is still in it and I had installed an auxilliary cooler and stronger hitch.

I was 100% with you, until your final paragraph about the 21 being just a few hundred pounds more than the 19. Others can correct me, but I thought it was closer to 500 lbs more, and with more space, we tend to bring more stuff.

I always felt that I was safe, but at the very edge of what I should be towing. If a driver is not as diligent and knowlegeable as you seem to be, including monitoring temps and holding speeds down to 60, there could be trouble in certain terrains, ambient temperatures, and traffic situations.

My favorite recollection is making the climb to Big Bend's upper campground and having to make repeated "photography stops" to let the trans cool down. Another is that crazy road in Northern Wyoming headed East that gives you all kinds of warnings after you've made the climb going the other way. For that one, we dumped all tanks and ran the heater full blast on a warm day and still had to make several cool-down stops.

As several have said, give it a try, but also manage your expectations.

[escape artist]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

I have a 2013 Tacoma v6 with tow package. I tow a 17sd casita with no problem. been thinking of a 19' but now i notice the 21 is only 190 lbs more. HMMM...

Hi: NEWYORKHILLBILLY... We are still towing with our 2010 Nissan Frontier Long Bed 4 ltr. V6 4X4 pickup. It now has about 85,000 real miles/ 135,000 krazy miles. We do a lot of flat land towing, but have been through the various mountain ranges on the Continent!!! I have not added any improvements to the engine, suspension, but did add after market trailer tow mirrors, due to changing to a 5.0TA from a 5.0.
So far So good and I never miss a photo op. Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie

[cpaharley2008]

Yes, Bill and Earline, the 21' impact is at least a 500# differential on the old style models and with both the new style 19 and 21 gaining weight, that differential should remain the same with both units GVWR increasing, with the 19 now at 5000# and the 21 has yet to be updated.

[thoer]

According to what Tammy told me (see post #10) the dry weight difference between the new generation 21 and 19 should be in the neighborhood of 300#.

[arniesea]

Originally Posted by Bill and Earline

An exceptionally well written article. You should post more often.
We towed over 20,000 miles with our 2003 V-6 4Runner, which we still have and enjoy. The ScanGuage is still in it and I had installed an auxilliary cooler and stronger hitch.

I was 100% with you, until your final paragraph about the 21 being just a few hundred pounds more than the 19. Others can correct me, but I thought it was closer to 500 lbs more, and with more space, we tend to bring more stuff.

I always felt that I was safe, but at the very edge of what I should be towing. If a driver is not as diligent and knowlegeable as you seem to be, including monitoring temps and holding speeds down to 60, there could be trouble in certain terrains, ambient temperatures, and traffic situations.

My favorite recollection is making the climb to Big Bend's upper campground and having to make repeated "photography stops" to let the trans cool down. Another is that crazy road in Northern Wyoming headed East that gives you all kinds of warnings after you've made the climb going the other way. For that one, we dumped all tanks and ran the heater full blast on a warm day and still had to make several cool-down stops.

As several have said, give it a try, but also manage your expectations.

While I agree with all the judicial towing advice both you Great Eggstrications have posted, you are both comparing your experiences with 4Runners with a 5000lb tow capacity to a Tacoma with a 6400lb tow capacity. The Tacoma with factory tow package is designed from the get-go to tow more than a 4Runner. It is simply a more capable vehicle for that purpose.

That being said, all your real-world experience and advice is spot on!

[cpaharley2008]

Originally Posted by thoer

According to what Tammy told me (see post #10) the dry weight difference between the new generation 21 and 19 should be in the neighborhood of 300#.

Yes, but remember this is unladen, empty w/o options. That bed under the 21 is a large cavern for your stuff as is all the extra cabinets in the trailer.

[thoer]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Yes, but remember this is unladen, empty w/o options. That bed under the 21 is a large cavern for your stuff as is all the extra cabinets in the trailer.

Exactly, and since we had everything along in the 17B that we ever seemed to need, that's what we plan to bring along in the 21. Mary will just be happy to be able to spread out her cooking "stuff" without having to stack and cram as much! I've done all our calculations and know that we can't just fill up all that new extra space.

I keep coming back to it, but the number too often overlooked by many people is the combined weight limits of their tow. In some cases (LOTS of stuff loaded into the tow) it comes into play sooner than just the tow weight limit.

I really recommend folks read and understand all the various weight limits on their tows - some are surprising. When comparing and deciding between a 2016 Highlander and 2016 Tacoma, although most all the weight limits are higher on the Tacoma, our 4x4 XLE Highlander has more cargo/passenger weight capacity than the 4x4 Access Cab Tacoma SR5.

[Kountrykamper]

After having a Casita for 6 years we learned to leave "stuff" at home. We still have a few almost empty cabinets in our 19. Every winter we go through it and if we have not touched something in a year it comes out.

We are on a "stuff" reduction at home too. It seems the older we get we find the less "stuff" the better.

[steve dunham]

These threads always confuse me ! Why would someone spend the money to go from a 17 ft trailer to a 21 ft trailer and then try to tow the 21' with the same vehicle that was already too small for the 17 ?
Why upgrade to a larger trailer to gain increased storage space and then leave that storage space empty because your tow vehicle is inadequate. ?
What is the sense or enjoyment of having to worry about every single pound you put in your tow vehicle or trailer or where that weight is located because you are towing on the edge ?

I own a 17' and use it to it's full capacity and if and when we purchase a 21' , we will do the same thing.
I take the listed GVWR of the trailer and I buy a vehicle that will handle that weight or greater
I have no intentions of leaving my wife or dog at home because we packed 2 extra cans of baked beans or a 6 Pack of beer.

The notion that being so loyal to a certain brand of vehicle that you would be willing to spend $3K to $5K to modify it hoping it may be able to tow your trailer amazes me.

When we go camping , I want to be able to load my truck and trailer with ALL the stuff I desire , hook up , start the truck and GO !
I refuse to go on a diet before a trip so we can just fit in under our weight limit.

REMEMBER , You can't always be driving downhill with a tailwind"

[thoer]

Tom, excellent points. I think that far too often in discussions of how big/powerful ones tow needs to be, we tend to leave out individual camping/travel styles. Mary and I tend to be more minimalist on what we haul along, and based on what our 17B weighed loaded vs dry I am comfortable with the limits of our Highlander as a tow.

I do NOT mean the following as any sort of disparagement of trucks as tows. For us, the ride comfort of the 2016 Highlander and day to day use makes it a better fit -for us. Its ride comfort is excellent and at our age that has become more meaningful.

If, however, like Fred and Dora, our 21 was our full time home, I would want a full size truck or an SUV with capacities like a V8 Sequoia. As Jim said, there is a LOT of storage space in a 21'. If folks want to be able to enjoy more stuff along, have others who travel with them, etc etc a Highlander or even a Tacoma might not have enough of some capacities.

What I'm saying (in too many words) is that a V6 Tacoma may be great plenty for some people towing a 21 and for others it might not. In the wise words of Donna YMMV!


Edit - Steve, some of us are not upgrading for more storage/stuff space, but rather just for more interior living space and some of us actually have different viewpoints that make sense to us.

Edit #2 - I forgot to say that if we lived in a mountainous region and/or traveled much more frequently in mountains, I would probably go for a more powerful tow. For us, the reality is that our Highlander will most likely spend far less than 1% of its life ever towing up or down very steep mountain grades. The other 99+% of the time it will be in the relative flat on the middle part of the US and Canada.

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

These threads always confuse me ! Why would someone spend the money to go from a 17 ft trailer to a 21 ft trailer and then try to tow the 21' with the same vehicle that was already too small for the 17 ?
Why upgrade to a larger trailer to gain increased storage space and then leave that storage space empty because your tow vehicle is inadequate. ?
What is the sense or enjoyment of having to worry about every single pound you put in your tow vehicle or trailer or where that weight is located because you are towing on the edge ?

I own a 17' and use it to it's full capacity and if and when we purchase a 21' , we will do the same thing.
I take the listed GVWR of the trailer and I buy a vehicle that will handle that weight or greater
I have no intentions of leaving my wife or dog at home because we packed 2 extra cans of baked beans or a 6 Pack of beer.

The notion that being so loyal to a certain brand of vehicle that you would be willing to spend $3K to $5K to modify it hoping it may be able to tow your trailer amazes me.

When we go camping , I want to be able to load my truck and trailer with ALL the stuff I desire , hook up , start the truck and GO !
I refuse to go on a diet before a trip so we can just fit in under our weight limit.

REMEMBER , You can't always be driving downhill with a tailwind"

Another point of view, is why people opt for a smaller, lighter built trailer, yet want to tow with a vehicle way beyond what is required? This also comes at a great cost, in dollars with the initial price, and in overall (towing and not) fuel consumption too. These larger vehicles are not as effective for daily use. I know my wife will not drive the truck around town, not even without the trailer as it is too big. She will drive a bit on the open road though.

I am just pointing out that there are many ways to approach each situation. We all have an opinion, but an opinion is a personal choice, something we can share, but also something we should never expect others to unquestionably accept.

If I was towing a 21', I would definitely be using an SUV. Haven't looked at all of them real close, so can't say which one it would be. Having to use a pickup for the 5.0TA was for me the biggest deterrent by far in deciding on that model.

My brother is in a similar situation as Eric, where his tow (a 4,500 lb capacity Honda Pilot) will tow his 2017 19 quite well, even though he will possibly have some performance issues in a few conditions. He is willing to accept that for now, as he has owned the SUV for 7 years, and it is paid for. In the future, should he encounter enough issue with it's capacity and performance, THEN he will make the decision to upgrade. He is actually hoping to hold out and see what the new Ford Ranger has to offer.

[rbryan4]

There's alot of good content in these last several posts. My take is I agree with Steve. If you're borderline with a smaller trailer, and you up size, consider a more capable tow. It's so much more stress and worry free to have more capacity than you need, rather than worry about weights.