New Subaru SUV- 7 passenger-

[rbryan4]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

That's why we hear things like "crossover" and "CUV" more now. It's a lot of marketing mumbo jumbo, but also design compromises.
This is pretty interesting from Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossover_(automobile)

To my knowledge the only mid-size SUV's that are still body-on-frame are the Toyota 4Runner and it's cousin the Lexus GX.

When I think of a "sport utility" vehicle, I think of one you can take off road or haul things with. That takes care of the "sport" part and the "utility" part. Today's luxo-box SUVs and CUVs are nice vehicles, but made for hauling kids or groceries. You certainly would not want to go rock climbing with them.

There's a reason why when you go to Moab you see so many Jeeps. When you're going to do some real off-roading, the pretenders go away.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by rbryan4

There's a reason why when you go to Moab you see so many Jeeps.

I didn't mention the Jeep Wrangler that is in a class by itself. All of Jeep's other "SUV's" pose for some good commercials, but the Wrangler is the only body-on-frame design left.

[rbryan4]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

I didn't mention the Jeep Wrangler that is in a class by itself. All of Jeep's other "SUV's" pose for some good commercials, but the Wrangler is the only body-on-frame design left.

That's true Dave, but a lack of body on frame construction doesn't necessarily mean no offroading capability. When I say Jeep, I am including the very capable Cherokee for example.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by rbryan4

That's true Dave, but a lack of body on frame construction doesn't necessarily mean no offroading capability. When I say Jeep, I am including the very capable Cherokee for example.

Completely agree. With the exception of huge towing demands (much more than any Escape trailer) that still necessitate a body-on-frame vehicle we have seen huge advancements in unibody designs that will satisfy the needs of most consumers. There still exists a perception in some circles that body-on-frame is "stronger". I'm guilty in this regard as an ex-owner of a Wrangler and current owner of a 4Runner.

From a Detroit News article May 2016:
“You once needed body-on-frame to get the stiffness you needed in a truck,” he says. “You now have the engineering and CAD/CAM (computer) capability to create a very stiff unibody that’s as capable as any body-on-frame. Yet it’s lighter and has better ride quality.”

"Brauer and other analysts say that the towing demands of the full-size truck market mean that Ford F-150s and Chevy Silverados will be body-on-frame for the foreseeable future. Yet, the capabilities of these rugged big trucks will make it hard to convince customers that smaller trucks can get the job done on a unibody chassis."

[War Eagle]

Looks like Subaru has finally released the full specs on their new Ascent 7-passenger SUV with 5,000 lb towing capacity including estimated MPG of 21 city, 27 highway, 23 combined with a just a little more torque than the Highlander and the Pilot.
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/02/15/...er-comparison/

[gbaglo]

I don't see tongue weight, which Subaru is notoriously low on.

[Micheal K]

Originally Posted by rbryan4

When I say Jeep, I am including the very capable Cherokee for example.

I think Jeep still runs the Rubicon for most new models. Not sure how many bypasses they use or how much damage they incur but based on the youtube videos for the new Cherokee and Grand Cherokee they aren't being gentle.

If I was buying a new tow, I'd find the Grand Cherokee pretty tempting. Can be configured with 7200 lbs towing and 1380 lbs payload.

[Micheal K]

Actually I think a milspec Jeep J8 would be awesome but sadly it' not available to civilians. Essentially it's just a beefed up wrangler...

Jeep J8 Light Utility Vehicle | Military-Today.com

Payload: 1339 kgs (2945 lbs)
Max Tow: 3500 kgs (7700 lbs)

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Micheal K

Actually I think a milspec Jeep J8 would be awesome but sadly it' not available to civilians. Essentially it's just a beefed up wrangler...

The regular production version (of the new JL Wrangler rather than the outgoing JK Wrangler) of the J8-style Jeep truck is coming, and we've been talking about it for a couple of years: Breaking News: trucks!

[War Eagle]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

I don't see tongue weight, which Subaru is notoriously low on.

I e-mailed a local Subaru dealership asking about the new Ascent's tongue weight - highlighting past mismatches between Subaru towing weight with tongue weight (3500 lb towing with only 200 lb tongue). I have not heard back yet. Will post the response if/when I get one. I find it interesting, and happily so, that Subaru's newest entry will still have a CD player as standard audio equipment. This at the same time that BestBuy is bowing to music downloading and streaming by ending their CD sales to recoup that valuable display space for better selling merchandise. Yet one more degree of separation from my old 8-track tapes. The times, they are a changing - again.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by War Eagle

I e-mailed a local Subaru dealership asking about the new Ascent's tongue weight - highlighting past mismatches between Subaru towing weight with tongue weight (3500 lb towing with only 200 lb tongue). I have not heard back yet. Will post the response if/when I get one.

I also sent an email through a general corporate web page. We'll see who they get back to first.

[Iowa Dave]

Originally Posted by War Eagle

I e-mailed a local Subaru dealership asking about the new Ascent's tongue weight - highlighting past mismatches between Subaru towing weight with tongue weight (3500 lb towing with only 200 lb tongue). I have not heard back yet. Will post the response if/when I get one. I find it interesting, and happily so, that Subaru's newest entry will still have a CD player as standard audio equipment. This at the same time that BestBuy is bowing to music downloading and streaming by ending their CD sales to recoup that valuable display space for better selling merchandise. Yet one more degree of separation from my old 8-track tapes. The times, they are a changing - again.

I’m still spinning vinyl, playing cassettes and on the lookout for 8 tracks as I peruse garage
Sale offerings, estate auctions and second hand stores. I gave all my 45s to my daughter and saw a few out and being played for the family including a Vaughn Monroe “Dance Ballerina Dance” and Frankie Lane “Mule Train the other day. My vinyl will be spinning long after Best Buy passes from the scene. What’s a Victrola PopPop?
Iowa Dave

[Micheal K]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

The regular production version (of the new JL Wrangler rather than the outgoing JK Wrangler) of the J8-style Jeep truck is coming, and we've been talking about it for a couple of years: Breaking News: trucks!

The J8 4 door version keeps the JKU wheelbase and looks the like a regular 4 door wrangler, not a truck, and yet gives huge payload and towing numbers. The rear axle of the J8 is a leaf sprung dana 60.

The Jeep truck has a longer wheelbase and, of course, has a truck bed. Spy shots of the Jeep truck show a rear axle setup like the Ram 1500 (coil springs). Rumored payload is in line with competiors, but nowhere near 2900 lbs.

[War Eagle]

A Subaru salesman got back with my wife and said that they have still received only limited information on the new Ascent, but they have been TOLD that the tongue weight will be 500 lb to match the 5000 lb towing weight. But the final verdict is still out.
On another note, it looks like Toyota is considering coming out with a shorter wheelbase FJ Cruiser to compete more directly with the Jeep Wrangler. Hopefully it would still be capable of towing a 13-17 ft. fiberglass camper. Toyota May Bring Back Small FJ Cruiser to Challenge Jeep Wrangler - Motor Trend

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by War Eagle

On another note, it looks like Toyota is considering coming out with a shorter wheelbase FJ Cruiser to compete more directly with the Jeep Wrangler. Hopefully it would still be capable of towing a 13-17 ft. fiberglass camper. Toyota May Bring Back Small FJ Cruiser to Challenge Jeep Wrangler - Motor Trend

Although this proposed model has been described as a "small FJ Cruiser", I doubt it would be both small and related to the FJ Cruiser. Like the 4Runner and Lexus GX, the FJ Cruiser was based on at least parts of the smaller Land Cruiser platform - the Prado. There isn't an even-smaller Land Cruiser to use as a base, and an even shorter wheelbase (than the FJ Cruiser) on the ever-expanding Prado platform makes little sense. The Prado moved on to a new and larger generation nine years ago

What's really strange is that a smaller vehicle than the FJ Cruiser would be billed as a response to the Jeep Wrangler. The Wrangler gets bigger and more successful with every generation, and the 4-door version of the JL (or even JK) Wrangler is bigger than even the old FJ Cruiser. Sure, the 2-door Wrangler is shorter, but most Wrangler buyers choose the long one, so the market available to Toyota for something matched in size and type to a 2-door JL Wrangler seems miniscule. Toyota already has an off-road-capable SUV the size of a Wrangler 4-door: the 4Runner.

The suggestion from Toyota NA's CEO that long wheel travel is only possible with a separate body and frame is technically nonsense; Jeep XJ and ZJ enthusiasts have no problem setting their unibody vehicles up with lots of wheel travel. I think he was really saying that Toyota's unibody SUV platforms (the C-HR, RAV4, and Highlander) all use front McPherson strut suspensions, which are not suitable for long travel.

[Micheal K]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

What's really strange is that a smaller vehicle than the FJ Cruiser would be billed as a response to the Jeep Wrangler. The Wrangler gets bigger and more successful with every generation, and the 4-door version of the JL (or even JK) Wrangler is bigger than even the old FJ Cruiser. Sure, the 2-door Wrangler is shorter, but most Wrangler buyers choose the long one, so the market available to Toyota for something matched in size and type to a 2-door JL Wrangler seems miniscule.

Interestingly, if you look at the sales data, the JK/JKU started to sell a lot more units/yr than the TJ starting around 2011 (about 2.5X in 2017 compared to 2006). Best info I could find on breakdown between the 2-door and the 4-door shows the 4-door outselling the 2-door by about 1.6:1 in 2012. I would bet this is more like 2:1 or even higher now. To me, this suggests that the 4-door Wrangler attracted new customers and demand for the 2-door Wrangler has been pretty steady from the 1997 until now, somewhere between 50K and 80K units/yr.

I guess that's the market a new FJ cruiser would have to be going after. Not sure if 80K/yr is considered niche or not but the field could get even more crowded with the new Ford Bronco in 2020 if that is 2-door as well.

New Ford Bronco, Ranger - Details on the 2019 Ford Ranger & 2020 Ford Bronco
Jeep Wrangler US car sales figures

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Micheal K

Not sure if 80K/yr is considered niche or not...

Toyota sells about two million vehicles a year in the United States, so selling one model at perhaps 10,000 a year (since they would never get a large slice) is a niche market effort for them. That's about the combined sales volume of the Toyota 86 / Subaru BRZ (and formerly Scion FR-S)... which is low enough that Toyota contracted with Subaru to build the car. Now they're partnering with BMW to build the new Supra, because they know they won't sell enough of them - that's why the previous Supra was discontinued.

The FJ Cruiser, which would have had wider appeal than this smaller off-roader, sold about 14,000/year in the U.S. for the last few years of its production... and that wasn't enough for Toyota to justify continuing or updating it. There have been lower production models, but they have specific corporate purposes - such as the fuel-cell Mirai - and I don't see a benefit to the company of selling low-fuel-economy small off-roaders. But hey, if the CEO of Toyota North America thinks there is some reason to build something like this, maybe they will.

In contrast, Subaru is a lower-volume company, and will tolerate lower sales volumes. The predecessor to the Ascent (the Tribeca) was down to about 2,000 per year before they gave up.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Micheal K

Interestingly, if you look at the sales data, the JK/JKU started to sell a lot more units/yr than the TJ starting around 2011 (about 2.5X in 2017 compared to 2006).

Yes, the JK Wrangler (including JK Wrangler Unlimited) has outsold the preceding TJ Wrangler, with an initial jump the year it was introduced (2007) and sustained much higher sales starting in 2011 - I don't know why the three-year stumble. Overall, the market says it wants bigger off-road-worthy SUVs, not smaller.

[Micheal K]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Yes, the JK Wrangler (including JK Wrangler Unlimited) has outsold the preceding TJ Wrangler, with an initial jump the year it was introduced (2007) and sustained much higher sales starting in 2011 - I don't know why the three-year stumble. Overall, the market says it wants bigger off-road-worthy SUVs, not smaller.

Yup. Bigger (to a point) is usually more practical. I had a 2-door and switched to the 4-door because my kids moaned about getting in the back and lack of storage space. To be fair to them, you did have to be a gymnast to get in the back. I do miss the 2-door's turning radius though...

Regarding the slow start to JK sales, I'm not sure either but I would guess that the 2012 model year drivetrain improvements could be responsible for the uptick in 2011 depending on when the 2012s started selling. 2007 to 2011 had a 205hp 3.8l engine with a poorly matched automatic. Performance of the 4-door was reputedly very underwhelming. In 2012 the JK and JKU both got the 285hp 3.6l pentastar and a much better automatic transmission.

[Bobbie54]

Originally Posted by War Eagle

A Subaru salesman got back with my wife and said that they have still received only limited information on the new Ascent, but they have been TOLD that the tongue weight will be 500 lb to match the 5000 lb towing weight. But the final verdict is still out.
On another note, it looks like Toyota is considering coming out with a shorter wheelbase FJ Cruiser to compete more directly with the Jeep Wrangler. Hopefully it would still be capable of towing a 13-17 ft. fiberglass camper. Toyota May Bring Back Small FJ Cruiser to Challenge Jeep Wrangler - Motor Trend

My 2012 Forester manual says tongue weight should be 8-11%. 8% just happens to be what you get if you are at max tongue weight (200) and max weight (2400) So if they did that they could say 400 lbs a tongue weight for 5000 lb tow.