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Old 08-18-2016, 06:43 AM   #21
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I absolutely love my Anderson Ultimate Fifth Wheel Hitch. Some of the things I like is that it's light and easy to remove from my truck (it's on rails). This increases payload and reduces load (on my back).

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that the adapter bolted to the trailer's pin, moves the hitch attachment point forward moving the trailer away from the truck cab. I can't measure without removing the adapter, but it must add at least 1" and maybe even 2-3" clearance between truck cab and trailer.


Rich

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Old 08-18-2016, 03:23 PM   #22
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Inspired by John's hands-on research, I stopped by a couple of dealerships while I was out. The local Toyota dealer had no first-generation Tundras, which is not unusual, although they did have a couple last month. At the Ford dealer, it is hard to find an F-150 in any cab-box combination other than SuperCab + 5.5' box... but they have about 27 inches of space from cab (rear window) to rough axle centreline. The 12 inch longer box has that same 12 inches more space (39"), because from the axle rearward all F-150s (of the same year) are identical. These numbers are a couple inches less than Bob's... I don't know why, but I was just eyeballing the axle position, and I was measuring to the cab, not to the front wall of in the interior of the box.

A new-style Tundra Double Cab with 6.5' box has the same cab-to-axle spacing as a 6.5' box F-150 (much longer than the first-generation Tundra with 6.5' box); the very long new-style MegaCab comes with a roughly five-foot box that provides about the same cab-to-axle space as a 5.5' F-150.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel0422 View Post
Brian,
ETI sent me this,
The distance from the cab to the hitch should be minimum 30” if the box is 5’ 5” in length.
If the box is 6’ or 6’6” mount it centered over the axle.
I measured approximately 32" from cab to center axle on my Tundra.

Dave
So everybody's on the same page about the cab-to-axle distance for the first-generation Tundra Access Cab and Double Cab. This is a bit longer than the cab-to-axle distance for a 5.5' box on an F-150, but several inches shorter than the cab-to-axle distance for a 6.5' box on an F-150. A 6-foot-box King Cab Frontier or Titan is even shorter than the first-generation Tundra.

The 30" minimum distance is the surprise for me. That sounds like the distance for the original 5.0, rather than the wider 5.0TA. 5.0TA owners with short boxes seem to be mounting the hitch well back, more than 30" from the cab, and even Reace's own 5.5' box F-150 reportedly places the pin well behind the axle (not just an inch). If I were preparing to tow a 5.0TA, I would get confirmation of this value.

Any ready-made hitch mounting brackets - installed following standard instructions - will place the fifth-wheel pin slightly ahead of the axle line, leaving zero margin for error in the best case. I think it makes sense to plan on a set-back pin position, by one of the several available methods.
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Old 08-18-2016, 03:32 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReagentGrade View Post
I absolutely love my Anderson Ultimate Fifth Wheel Hitch.
...
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that the adapter bolted to the trailer's pin, moves the hitch attachment point forward moving the trailer away from the truck cab. I can't measure without removing the adapter, but it must add at least 1" and maybe even 2-3" clearance between truck cab and trailer.
The Andersen Ultimate ball is offset 4 inches ahead of the pin, which is effectively a pin box extension and not the same as moving the hitch 4 inches back, but still helps clearance.
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Old 08-18-2016, 03:37 PM   #24
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OP, if you have not heard from CADreamin, they pull a19 with about that vintage Tundra. Might be worth a pm to get their input.
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Old 08-18-2016, 09:32 PM   #25
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One other comment about the Ultimate Hitch. The pedistal is not symmetrical the ball us closer to one edge than the other. For a short bed, you set it in the rails with the ball farthest from the cab. I don't have the exact difference, maybe Brian can find the drawings.


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Old 08-18-2016, 11:11 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReagentGrade View Post
One other comment about the Ultimate Hitch. The pedistal is not symmetrical the ball us closer to one edge than the other. For a short bed, you set it in the rails with the ball farthest from the cab. I don't have the exact difference, maybe Brian can find the drawings.
From the current version of the "gooseneck" version dimensions drawing (the same source as the coupler image), here's an illustration of the 5.5" offset from the location of the anchoring ball in the bed floor to the Ultimate hitch ball; I don't see a dimension drawing for the rail-mount version (and the installation manual mentions the offset without giving a dimension), but perhaps the distance is similar?
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Old 08-18-2016, 11:55 PM   #27
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The Ultimate is 24 inch square but 22 inches from the front rail to back rail slots. The ball is 6 inches from one end and 16 inches from the other. I'm hoping that if the rails are mounted in the existing holes in the F 150 frame then the center of the hitch would be 2 inches ahead of the axle center. The ball would be 6 inches behind or 4 inches aft of the axle. The kingpin coupling extends an additional 4 inches so it should fit with no clearance issues. Hope, hope. It is a .pdf from the Anderson site and I couldn't get it to post here.
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Old 08-19-2016, 12:30 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFDavis50 View Post
The Ultimate is 24 inch square but 22 inches from the front rail to back rail slots. The ball is 6 inches from one end and 16 inches from the other. I'm hoping that if the rails are mounted in the existing holes in the F 150 frame then the center of the hitch would be 2 inches ahead of the axle center. The ball would be 6 inches behind or 4 inches aft of the axle. The kingpin coupling extends an additional 4 inches so it should fit with no clearance issues. Hope, hope. It is a .pdf from the Anderson site and I couldn't get it to post here.
That sounds right, except that the offset is 5" (not 6") so if the rail midpoint is 2 inches ahead of the axle then the two positions are 7 inches ahead or 3 inches behind the axle.

I was using my downloaded collection of Andersen documents, and had missed the rail-mount dimension drawing. Here's the diagram, clipped out of the PDF file... with the 7" and 17" dimensions (to the edges of the frame, one inch beyond the mounting tabs that go into the rail centreline slots) showing that the ball ends up 5" ahead of or behind (your choice) the midway point between the rails.
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Old 08-19-2016, 12:46 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
That sounds right, except that the offset is 5" (not 6") so if the rail midpoint is 2 inches ahead of the axle then the two positions are 7 inches ahead or 3 inches behind the axle.

I was using my downloaded collection of Andersen documents, and had missed the rail-mount dimension drawing. Here's the diagram, clipped out of the PDF file... with the 7" and 17" dimensions (to the edges of the frame, one inch beyond the mounting tabs that go into the rail centreline slots) showing that the ball ends up 5" ahead of or behind (your choice) the midway point between the rails.
(Barbie Quote: Math is Tough) Oops, I just subtracted the inch from each end and applied it to the centerline.

For me that is better because the 4 inch kingpin to ball socket is an extension of the trailer. Really need to wait on the new 2017 design to see if anything is changing.
I intend to use this hitch on my "motorized wheelbarrow" F 150 short bed.
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Old 08-19-2016, 08:37 AM   #30
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You will love this hitch! It's lighter, making it easier to remove from the bed and uses less of the truck's payload. It uses less room in the bed, leaving more for other things. And you don't have to worry about the trailer being on a different plane than the truck. I'm not very familiar with traditional hitches, but all rotate when viewed from the side (pitch). The better (more $$$?) also rotate when viewed from the front/back (yaw). The PO once stopped a place where the trailer was on a different plane than the truck and could not unhitch. I never have this issue.

Some states require hitches with balls to have chains, I use the optional chains sold by Anderson.

I have a simple hitch mod that makes it MUCH easier to hook up. As you know, you must position the socket over the ball. I usually hook up alone and can't see the ball from the driver's seat. This, plus a view offset from the centerline, makes this a maddening task! Thus my mod. I glued a small piece of brass tubing to the front of the shaft the ball sits in. I put an 18" (approx) piece of spring wire in the shaft with a piece of red electrician's tape at the top (just for visibility). I put more red tape on the front of the trailer's hitch adapter. I back up until the wire is aligned with the tape on the trailer and the wire just starts to spring forward. Everything is now close to perfect alignment. When the hitch is new, exact alignment is more critical; as you use it, things become more become more polished (or something) and the trailer will adjust to slight differences as you lower it.

Here are some photos:



One final note... On my Bigfoot, there wasn't enough vertical clearance between the bottom of the trailer's "nose" frame and the side of the truck. I kept having troubles with the remote pin release hitting the truck and getting bent. I finally moved it to the front of the frame; this solved that problem.





Rich

1987 Bigfoot 5er (starter wheels)
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Old 08-19-2016, 03:15 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReagentGrade View Post
You will love this hitch! It's lighter, making it easier to remove from the bed and uses less of the truck's payload. It uses less room in the bed, leaving more for other things. And you don't have to worry about the trailer being on a different plane than the truck. I'm not very familiar with traditional hitches, but all rotate when viewed from the side (pitch). The better (more $$$?) also rotate when viewed from the front/back (yaw). The PO once stopped a place where the trailer was on a different plane than the truck and could not unhitch. I never have this issue.

Some states require hitches with balls to have chains, I use the optional chains sold by Anderson.

I have a simple hitch mod that makes it MUCH easier to hook up. As you know, you must position the socket over the ball. I usually hook up alone and can't see the ball from the driver's seat. This, plus a view offset from the centerline, makes this a maddening task! Thus my mod. I glued a small piece of brass tubing to the front of the shaft the ball sits in. I put an 18" (approx) piece of spring wire in the shaft with a piece of red electrician's tape at the top (just for visibility). I put more red tape on the front of the trailer's hitch adapter. I back up until the wire is aligned with the tape on the trailer and the wire just starts to spring forward. Everything is now close to perfect alignment. When the hitch is new, exact alignment is more critical; as you use it, things become more become more polished (or something) and the trailer will adjust to slight differences as you lower it.

Here are some photos:



One final note... On my Bigfoot, there wasn't enough vertical clearance between the bottom of the trailer's "nose" frame and the side of the truck. I kept having troubles with the remote pin release hitting the truck and getting bent. I finally moved it to the front of the frame; this solved that problem.





Rich

1987 Bigfoot 5er (starter wheels)
2017 Escape 5.0 TA (dream wheels: Sept 2017)
Hi Rich - I don't know anything about this type of hitch, but it does look like it would save some weight and give short bed trucks a bit more clearance. Wouldn't it make it more difficult, though, to hook up versus a "standard" 5th wheel hitch? We used to tow a tent trailer camper and it was always a challenge to align the hitch so it would drop perfectly onto the ball.
We did find a product to help that works in the same way as your above described wire system. I think it was called "Hitch Aligner" (a magnetic alignment kit for trailers) using telescoping rod with a magnetic base and topped with a tennis ball.
Anyhow, despite its usefulness, I was looking forward to not having to suffer through this type of hookup when we get our 5th wheel 5.0 TA.
Am I off base, or is the Anderson hitch something I should really consider if I end up getting a "first generation" Tundra as my tow vehicle?
Thanks!
John
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Old 08-19-2016, 03:43 PM   #32
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The Andersen Ultimate 5th Wheel Connection has three appealing features which are specifically applicable to the early Tundra + 5.0TA combination
  • light weight
  • ability to offset the hitch point rearward (5" or 5.5" depending on model) from the standard hitch mounting location
  • effective extension (by 4") of the pin box
It is a ball hitch, rather than a normal pin-and-plate fifth-wheel, which has consequences. For lots of discussion of this system, try a search of EscapeForum for "Andersen Ultimate".

There are other ways to offset the hitch rearward, including
  • non-standard frame brackets, or
  • B&W Companion or Patriot fifth-wheel hitch.
There are also other ways to extend the pin box.

Aligning the ball and coupler is a common concern. Andersen recently added a funnel to the system to help. It does not appear on their website, because apparently you are supposed to make "friends" with them in Facebook to get product information.
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Old 08-19-2016, 04:24 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LatLongJohn View Post
Am I off base, or is the Anderson hitch something I should really consider if I end up getting a "first generation" Tundra as my tow vehicle?
Thanks!
John
A couple well placed remote cameras will do wonders.
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Old 08-19-2016, 05:43 PM   #34
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John, I can't compare the Ultimate to a traditional fifth wheel hitch because I've only used the Ultimate. That said, I really like what I've got and would not consider changing.

I insist on a removable hitch! My understanding is that the traditional hitches are much harder to remove if only because they are so much heavier. Some apparently come out in more than piece making it somewhat easier, but even then I've heard the pieces could weigh 75 pounds or more! I have only one piece thats less than 50 pounds!

Yes, getting everything aligned is in two axes (sp?) can be a challenge. But I can see better than with a rear mounted ball and I can often get it done in one try. As BCnomad suggests, my next step will be a camera mounted inside my back window of my truck right on the centerline. This will make it dead easy.

As for the chains, they are much easier to attach than on a bumper. Click, click, and they're done! You don't have to lean down and you don't have to worry about them dragging. The biggest nuisance I've had is the trailer plug connection. Thanks to a suggestion from my nephew, I installed a jack inside my bed. No more problems. Duhh!

Technically, I should have a separate connection point for my brake breakaway switch. I don't have one handy so I clip on to the same bar as the chains.

If I have one reservation, it's about the size on the bar for the clipping on the chains. I think they are undersized. I don't believe chains are needed with the Ultimate, but if they were, I'm not convinced these would hold. Everything else about the chains is robust, but not the attachment bar. Of course, if the trailer ever comes loose, by the time the chains come into play, the hitch adapter would already have torn off the tail gate.


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Old 08-19-2016, 08:42 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReagentGrade View Post
John, I can't compare the Ultimate to a traditional fifth wheel hitch because I've only used the Ultimate. That said, I really like what I've got and would not consider changing.

I insist on a removable hitch! My understanding is that the traditional hitches are much harder to remove if only because they are so much heavier. Some apparently come out in more than piece making it somewhat easier, but even then I've heard the pieces could weigh 75 pounds or more! I have only one piece thats less than 50 pounds!

Rich

1987 Bigfoot 5er (starter wheels)
2017 Escape 5.0 TA (dream wheels: Sept 2017)
Thanks for the input, Rich. I can see that having the hitch easy to remove can be an important consideration. I'll keep researching and see what seems like the best solution for my situation.
John
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Old 08-19-2016, 09:02 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by ReagentGrade View Post
Yes, getting everything aligned is in two axes (sp?) can be a challenge. But I can see better than with a rear mounted ball and I can often get it done in one try. As BCnomad suggests, my next step will be a camera mounted inside my back window of my truck right on the centerline. This will make it dead easy.
I think where to put a camera depends on what you have difficulty seeing.
  • If the challenge is lining up left-right, then the camera should be on centreline at the front of the box (such as inside at the bottom of the window)... but in many cases the inside rearview mirror has a clear view of the hitch so no camera is needed for this.
  • If the challenge is front-to-back, then a camera mounted on the side of the box, facing directly across the box at the hitch, will clearly show the relative position of hitch and trailer.
  • If the challenge is height, you don't need a camera (although any camera mounted near coupling height will show this) - you just need a tape measure or a piece of string the right length) to use when you raise the front of the trailer before hitching.
The first two are the axes that you need to think about while backing in to hitch up. And yes, the plural of "axis" is "axes".

The only thing Tundra-specific about this is how well you can see the hitch from the driver's seat.
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Old 08-19-2016, 09:05 PM   #37
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Technically, I should have a separate connection point for my brake breakaway switch. I don't have one handy so I clip on to the same bar as the chains.
If the purpose of the chains and breakaway switch is to handle the separation of removable hitch components from the truck, then anywhere on the Andersen frame is not suitable (for the breakaway switch or the chains). If the purpose is only to handle the consequences of forgetting to close the coupler, then I don't see why it matters if the switch cable and chains go to the same location.

Doesn't the truck have cargo tie-downs, to which you could clip the breakaway switch cable?
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Old 08-19-2016, 09:15 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
If the purpose of the chains and breakaway switch is to handle the separation of removable hitch components from the truck, then anywhere on the Andersen frame is not suitable (for the breakaway switch or the chains). If the purpose is only to handle the consequences of forgetting to close the coupler, then I don't see why it matters if the switch cable and chains go to the same location.

Doesn't the truck have cargo tie-downs, to which you could clip the breakaway switch cable?
The cargo tie-downs on my F 150 are too flimsy. How about the back rail which is bolted to the frame brackets?
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Old 08-19-2016, 09:43 PM   #39
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Brian, my biggest challenge is the left-right alignment. The rear view mirror does help, but a camera in the back window will be much clearer. The flag handles the front to back... as soon as it starts to deflect, it's in the right position (the camera will help detect deflection). A side cam would be even better, but then I'd need a split screen, etc. Seems like overkill. Height issues are already easy to see, but a camera in the window would be a great double check. To tell the truth, it will even more valuable for a senior moment when I leave the tail gate up!

I hadn't thought to connect the breakaway to the tie down in the side of the bed. I'll see if there is enough slack when turning. If so, I'll do that. If not, I'll try to attach a ring or some thing to the front rail. That's not completely independent of the hitch, but much more so than the chain bar. As SF says, the tie down is not robust enough for the chains, but it can easily handle the breakaway switch cable.

Thanks for your insight!


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Old 08-20-2016, 11:01 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by ReagentGrade View Post
As for the chains, they are much easier to attach than on a bumper. Click, click, and they're done! You don't have to lean down...
You don't have to lean so far down, but you do need to reach a suitable point for the chains. Normally that is at the box floor, which can be difficult to reach; even the little bars on sides of the rail-mount Andersen frame are about three feet in from the box side. Shorter people or those with taller box sides might find the location of safety chains of a hitch at the rear bumper easier to reach than the safety chains they would need to use with an Andersen or other in-box ball hitch.

The first-generation Tundra box is not as tall or wide as many current trucks, but is both wider than the compact and mid-size trucks (e.g. Tacoma, Frontier) and higher than older light pickups (e.g. first-generation Tacoma, almost any pickup from a couple of decades ago).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReagentGrade View Post
If I have one reservation, it's about the size on the bar for the clipping on the chains. I think they are undersized. I don't believe chains are needed with the Ultimate, but if they were, I'm not convinced these would hold. Everything else about the chains is robust, but not the attachment bar.
This has been discussed before, and I don't recall what the conclusion was about those bars - I don't know if they are actually for the safety chains, or are braces in the structure. In the installation document which Andersen provides for the safety chain kit, the chains are shown attached to proper safety chain loops in the floor of the bed (which anchor in the permanently installed under-floor structure), but that's the version of the Andersen Ultimate which is anchored by a bed-mounted ball, not the version which mounts on rails.

Again, if the purpose of the chains is to handle the separation of removable hitch components from the truck, then anywhere on the Andersen frame is not suitable, even if it is strong. If the purpose is only to handle the consequences of forgetting to close the coupler, then I agree that this location looks structurally marginal. I would ask what Andersen thinks of this, but I'm pretty sure that they don't believe that chains have any purpose other than as a token concession to a legal requirement (and chains are legally required in many jurisdictions with any hitch other than a pin-and-plate fifth-wheel). I suspect that those little loops on Andersen's special coupler bolts for safety chains will pop off about as easily as the bars on the hitch frame.
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