Real Tongue Weights on a 21'

[Iowa Dave]

My post was meant to be a process and procedure appropriate to any vehicle and any trailer and to point out considerations with which the uninitiated might not be familiar. It was not a request for approval or disapproval of personal choices in equipment of any kind. 45,000 miles of trouble free towing a 19 and 21 with a Highlander over the past 6 years are my qualifications for my opinion. I do not have a Tacoma or any other tow vehicle at this time. Therefore, I do not comment on suitability, ride, fuel mileage, overall durability or any of the myriad of considerations people like or don’t like in a vehicle. As my Dad used to say about whatever he was driving “ Don’t stop too long for a cup of coffee, I’ll be along directly”.
Iowa Dave

[cpaharley2008]

I understood Dave's post as to the proper loading process that allows a accurate measure of weights, regardless of tow vehicle, something I am guilty of not following. I have only been weighed once and that was because the person operating the scale wanted a tour of my Escape 21. I do have a Sherline tongue scale that I use with each Escape after loading to know what the weight is on my tow vehicle because of it's limitations.

[steve dunham]

ETI offers so many custom options and everyone’s style of camping differs , how does one decide on a tow vehicle before they possess and actually weigh their loaded trailer .
I’ve seen tongue weights for an Escape 21 posted on this forum between the low 400’s to the low 700’s
A rather large variation which could lead to someone needing a different class of vehicle
I am not questioning anyone’s choice of vehicle but only curious about what led you to your decision

[Iowa Dave]

In 1970 Clayne R Jensen wrote Outdoor Recreation in America. This book along with some great professors taught me what I needed to get started as a career professional in Parks and Recreation. Mentored by some excellent supervisors and sheltered under the wing of some really smart old guys about 70 years old who I “supervised” I became proficient enough to manage the largest municipal park system in the state of Iowa. To manage this system took considerable equipment. We towed a TD24 International with Swamp pads weighing 48,000 lbs and we towed single axle trailers hauling a Christmas tree to a rec center, and a lot of stuff in between. Experience and due diligence in respecting the job at hand, knowing the weights and dimensions and developing specifications for both tow vehicles and trailers for 32 years, towing trailers for 50 years before I towed our first Escape and a compendium of knowledge gleaned from reading, consulting with experts and personal reasoning allowed me to make a choice that worked out for me and will continue to traverse the public highways of the United States and Canada until this old dog hangs it up. As Donna says YMMV.
Iowa Dave

[cpaharley2008]

compendium
Encyclopedia Dave..........

[bdornbush]

Originally Posted by War Eagle

A purely academic question here, but doesn't a weight distribution hitch reduce weight on the rear axle of the tow vehicle by redistributing that weight, proportionally, depending upon distances to: 1) the front axle of the tow vehicle AND 2) the axle(s) of the trailer? The WDH forces a flex in the middle to reduce weight in the middle and redistribute that weight, to my thinking, to BOTH ends. I don't think a WDH can make all of that redistributed weight go in only one direction. Am I missing something? It would be interesting to have a set of portable single axle scales, like the DOT uses to weight 18-wheelers on the side of the highway, and weigh each axle individually without the WDH, and then weigh again with the WDH. I bet at least some of that weight that leaves the rear axle of the tow vehicle shows up on the axle(s) of the trailer. What say you, physics majors and engineers? Again, purely academic curiosity....

I am not sure that this is purely academic. Let's say that the weight on my trailer axles is 3900# without the WDH and 4100# with the WDH. Have I now exceeded the loading capacity of my axles of 4000#? If so, and I tow with the WDH, then it's not academic at all but a real problem for me. I hope when I next weigh my trailer and rig that I am below 4000# with and without the WDH engaged.

I am not too concerned though, because the last time I weighed my trailer, it was 3400# with the WDH engaged, which should be the worst case for the trailer axle load.

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by bdornbush

I am not sure that this is purely academic. Let's say that the weight on my trailer axles is 3900# without the WDH and 4100# with the WDH. Have I now exceeded the loading capacity of my axles of 4000#? If so, and I tow with the WDH, then it's not academic at all but a real problem for me. I hope when I next weigh my trailer and rig that I am below 4000# with and without the WDH engaged.

I am not too concerned though, because the last time I weighed my trailer, it was 3400# with the WDH engaged, which should be the worst case for the trailer axle load.

Since the axle has no way of knowing there is a WDH out front, the simple answer is yes. You are over the rating...

[Mike G]

Oooh, zucchini bread! I should come to Iowa!!

About tongue weight: I see tongue weight and hitch weight as slightly different things. Tongue weight is the weight of the trailer tongue that would rest on the ball. Hitch weight is the total weight acting upon the hitch receiver, and this includes the weight of any WD hitch being used. For the latter, I am inclined to not subtract any weight being redistributed fore and aft by that WD hitch, because it is still a levering force acting upon the receiver; but I will add that I'm not an engineer so I might not see this last point correctly.

[Andy B]

Hi,
Does anyone have towing experience with an AWD Ford Transit full sized passenger van?
I know there a bunch of configurations. The one I am considering to tow my 1016 Classic 21
Escape is only rated at 4400 lbs. I have my trailer stored for the winter so I cannot easily weigh it right now. We currently tow it easily with an AWD 2006 Chevy Express van, but it is passing 160k miles and I am thinking it might be time to retire it. We tow regularly from Northern Michigan to Oregon. Therefore we do need something with Good uphill and downhill capability. I much prefer the Van to a Pickup configuration. I am not tall and the trucks are!!

Andy

[Andy B]

I forgot to mention the Ford has been specked with the 3.5 V6 Eco boost engine and 10 speed automatic.
Andy

[Eggscape]

I tow a 19 with the same engine and transmission in my pick up and it is amazing. The available power will get you where you want to go no problem.

Here is test video of that combination with a big load up a big hill and there is still more available power.
https://youtu.be/k8CafR1YxqE

[John in Santa Cruz]

your classic E21 has a 4500 lb GWR, about 500 lbs of hitch weight, depending on how you load it. dry weight is around 3500 or 3700 lbs, IIRC.

Whats the *PAYLOAD* of this van? 4400 lb tow seems rather light for a full sized RWD vehicle.my old E150 half ton van was rated to tow like 8000 lbs.

[rjreeves]

My 21' is generally @460# or so but that's with a light build plus I tend to load light because Tacoma.

[rjreeves]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

I think the question may be ( since I have the same question ), if my WDH and bars weigh 68 lbs. and the Sherline scale comes up with 320 lbs for the hitch weight, does that make my tongue weight 388 lbs? Or does the redistribution of weight result in a different number?

This question becomes more relevant as one's TV capacity lessens. In my case the Fastway E2 WD hitch comes in @ 82 lbs, a whopping 13.2% of my TV's rated tongue capacity.

[Ron in BC]

I tow my 21C with a 2.7 10 speed. Towed far and wide with it. I consider it the tow vehicle that I've always wanted.

Ron

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

Whats the *PAYLOAD* of this van? 4400 lb tow seems rather light for a full sized RWD vehicle.my old E150 half ton van was rated to tow like 8000 lbs.

Transits are intended primarily to carry payloads, not to tow them, so the low tow rating isn't very surprising. In the online specs for Transit passenger vans towing capacity varies from 3,700 to 4,600 pounds but payload runs from 2,734 to 3,494 pounds; the extended-body variant can tow only 206 pounds more than it can carry. There are an astounding number of other variations, with towing capacity up to 6,900 pounds (6,800 pounds in AWD).

[Rossue]

Originally Posted by Andy B

Hi,
Does anyone have towing experience with an AWD Ford Transit full sized passenger van? Andy

We have a 2021 Ford Transit T-250 AWD Ecoboost/10 speed trans. It tows the 21 with no problems and of course has plenty of power. Good luck finding one!

[John in Santa Cruz]

wow, those *are* low tow ratings for that class vehicle.
https://www.fleet.ford.com/content/d...owingGuide.pdf
(page 33). Even the Transit 350 '1 ton' passenger van has no better than 4400 lbs tow (and 3300 lbs for the 350 long wheelbase extended roof 4x4). The cargo vans do better but thats undoubtedly because they have much less curb weight, with no side windows, only front seats, and stripped of most 'luxo' content like dual ACs and such.

[Rossue]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

wow, those *are* low tow ratings for that class vehicle..

Yeah, but with 148" WB and Ecoboost do you think it might be better than a Highlander with 5K tow capacity? It is interesting the difference between passenger vans and my 250 Cargo that has 6800 lb. tow rating.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Rossue

Yeah, but with 148" WB and Ecoboost do you think it might be better than a Highlander with 5K tow capacity?

don't know, haven't driven a Transit. My towing-with-a-van experience is mostly limited to a 2001 E150 w/ the old 5.4 "Vortex" gas guzzler. That van as a passenger wagon had a 6600 lb tow capacity (I just verified this off the 2001 edition of the Ford Towing Guide), and a 12000 lb GCWR.