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Old 02-14-2018, 10:57 AM   #21
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There seems to be a consensus that any half ton or smaller truck can automatically tow any FG trailers so there is no need to run the numbers.
I've done the calculations for my Ram 1500 about 4 or 5 times and unless I resign myself to packing extremely light and running with a zero % safety margin , I should be towing with a heavy half ton or a 3/4 ton truck .
One of the towing spread sheets I ran this morning says that the largest trailer I can tow with my truck has to weigh under 3000 lbs.
The calculated numbers sure don't match up with what the vehicle manufacturers and the RV industry would like us to believe.
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:00 AM   #22
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Trying to run some calcs for 2005 Toyota 4Runner and my door placard says to not exceed 950 lbs (occupants and cargo). Online information says payload is 1280 lbs (GVWR of 5580 lbs minus curb weight of 4300 lbs which makes sense to me). I thought the 330 lb payload difference might be accounting for fuel but it doesn't add up as 23 gallons of gas only weighs 140 lbs.

Thoughts?
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:18 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by rubicon327 View Post
Trying to run some calcs for 2005 Toyota 4Runner and my door placard says to not exceed 950 lbs (occupants and cargo). Online information says payload is 1280 lbs (GVWR of 5580 lbs minus curb weight of 4300 lbs which makes sense to me). I thought the 330 lb payload difference might be accounting for fuel but it doesn't add up as 23 gallons of gas only weighs 140 lbs.

Thoughts?
The internet payload numbers for my Ram shows a limit of approx 1600 lbs . The payload limit shown on the pillar sticker for my truck is 1300 lbs . A difference of around 20%
Several of the spread sheets I found tell you to use the payload number off the sticker and not the one off the web..
Using the Web numbers vs the numbers off the vehicle sticker tend to incorrectly inflate towing numbers.
Another thing I noticed on several of the calculation sheets is that they do not use 10% for tongue weight . Some use 12% and some use 15% .
Most of the sheets also used a safety factor of 20%
IE :A 5000 lb rated vehicle would be derated to 4000 lbs .
Whether that is necessary , I have no way of knowing.
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:58 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by rubicon327 View Post
Trying to run some calcs for 2005 Toyota 4Runner and my door placard says to not exceed 950 lbs (occupants and cargo). Online information says payload is 1280 lbs (GVWR of 5580 lbs minus curb weight of 4300 lbs which makes sense to me). I thought the 330 lb payload difference might be accounting for fuel but it doesn't add up as 23 gallons of gas only weighs 140 lbs.

Thoughts?
It's not fuel - as noted above, a fuel tank of fuel (and all other fluids that are part of the vehicle) are included in the curb weight.

The likely difference is options. The 1280 pound payload is likely for the lightest variant of the truck (base model, no options, no accessories... and 4300 pounds curb weight), and the 950 pound payload is either for the truck as-equipped, or the worst case of possible factory options on that variant.

Personally, I would use the placard value for planning if I didn't yet have the vehicle, but weigh the actual vehicle (empty but with fuel) to determine the actual curb weight and thus the actual available payload.
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:23 PM   #25
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Thanks guys.

For GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) what does one use? Is this simply the GWVR of the truck (in my case 5,580 lbs) plus the mfr's towing capacity of the vehicle (in my case 5,000 lbs) for a total of 10,580 lbs? That makes sense intuitively.
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:26 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by steve dunham View Post
There seems to be a consensus that any half ton or smaller truck can automatically tow any FG trailers so there is no need to run the numbers.
I've done the calculations for my Ram 1500 about 4 or 5 times and unless I resign myself to packing extremely light and running with a zero % safety margin , I should be towing with a heavy half ton or a 3/4 ton truck .
One of the towing spread sheets I ran this morning says that the largest trailer I can tow with my truck has to weigh under 3000 lbs.
The calculated numbers sure don't match up with what the vehicle manufacturers and the RV industry would like us to believe.
4-door "crew cab" half ton pickups when fully optioned tend to be darn heavy

I was just looking at Ford's towing data for an older pickup, a 2002 F250 diesel. now thats nominally a 3/4 ton truck, but a crew cab with a 8' bed (and a eek 175" wheelbase) diesel 4x4 with a typical set of options might only have a 1400 lb payload in the truck. ;-O my tacoma access cab 4x4 has a 1200 lb payload.
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:51 PM   #27
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Thanks guys.

For GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) what does one use? Is this simply the GWVR of the truck (in my case 5,580 lbs) plus the mfr's towing capacity of the vehicle (in my case 5,000 lbs) for a total of 10,580 lbs? That makes sense intuitively.
the GCWR should be given by the tow vehicle's manufacturer. its often somewhat LESS than the combination of the max trailer tow weight and GVWR (also note that in the GCWR, the tongue weight is on the GVWR side).
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:03 PM   #28
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4-door "crew cab" half ton pickups when fully optioned tend to be darn heavy

I was just looking at Ford's towing data for an older pickup, a 2002 F250 diesel. now thats nominally a 3/4 ton truck, but a crew cab with a 8' bed (and a eek 175" wheelbase) diesel 4x4 with a typical set of options might only have a 1400 lb payload in the truck. ;-O my tacoma access cab 4x4 has a 1200 lb lbs

While not great , not bad either. I was reading several Ram truck forums this morning . The Ram 1500 Limited with the Eco Diesel engine has a payload of less then 1000 lbs and supposedly in some cases in the 800 to 900 lb range. This has lead to many unhappy buyers who want to tow .
With the rise in CAFE standards for 1/2 ton trucks and the introduction of hybrid light duty trucks , I can envision the day that a 13 ft FG trailer will be the upper limit on towing with a standard vehicle
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:11 PM   #29
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For GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) what does one use? Is this simply the GWVR of the truck (in my case 5,580 lbs) plus the mfr's towing capacity of the vehicle (in my case 5,000 lbs) for a total of 10,580 lbs? That makes sense intuitively.
It makes sense, but no, the GCWR is very rarely that high, and certainly not for a truck.
  • The highest possible value of GCWR is GVWR plus trailer weight rating. Some cars have this, so you could carry the full rated payload (less the tongue weight) plus the max rated trailer... but this is typically found only with cars rated for too little trailer weight to pull any Escape.
  • The lowest possible value of GCWR is curb weight plus a driver allowance and the trailer weight rating. This is typical for pickup trucks: you can only tow the max rated trailer if you have no passengers, no cargo, and no extra personal body weight (beyond the assumed driver weight, which is rarely more than 170 pounds).

It would not make sense for a truck to have GCWR equal to GVWR plus the trailer weight. Working back from the limiting factors, if a truck's powertrain can handle 10,580 pounds, and the truck itself weighs only 4,000 pounds (for instance), why limit it to towing a 5,000 pound trailer... it could tow a 6,000 pound trailer while carrying a couple of people. In practice, that's how a truck's trailer rating it set: determine the GCWR (based on component limits), and subtract the curb weight and driver allowance. There are also other factors to check, such as ensuring that the likely weight on the hitch due to that trailer doesn't overload the rear axle (or that the likely pin weight of a fifth-wheel doesn't exceed the payload).
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:14 PM   #30
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...
The Ram 1500 Limited with the Eco Diesel engine has a payload of less then 1000 lbs and supposedly in some cases in the 800 to 900 lb range.
Yep, that diesel engine is a heavy thing, and it uses up payload. The guy in the video mentions this issue, comparing payloads of trucks in his example set (Ford SuperDuty) with diesel and lighter gas engines.
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Old 02-14-2018, 03:17 PM   #31
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While not great , not bad either. I was reading several Ram truck forums this morning . The Ram 1500 Limited with the Eco Diesel engine has a payload of less then 1000 lbs and supposedly in some cases in the 800 to 900 lb range. This has lead to many unhappy buyers who want to tow .
With the rise in CAFE standards for 1/2 ton trucks and the introduction of hybrid light duty trucks , I can envision the day that a 13 ft FG trailer will be the upper limit on towing with a standard vehicle
yet the new ford f150 bucks that trend, with like 3400 lbs payload for relatively base model with the ecoboost v6 turbo. they made the whole truck out of aluminum, and took all the weight savings and put it back into the payload (eg, same GVWR, but much lighter truck).
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Old 02-14-2018, 04:18 PM   #32
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... they made the whole truck out of aluminum, and took all the weight savings and put it back into the payload (eg, same GVWR, but much lighter truck).
I agree that saving weight on any part of the truck while not reducing chassis capacity means more payload. On the other hand, only the body of the F-150 changed to aluminum (not the frame, suspension, or powertrain), and half of the body weight reduction was used up in additional features.

I think the availability of a high payload package for the F-150 is as significant as the aluminum body. The lesson here is to look for payload and towing packages, and choose not just a suitable model of truck, but a suitable configuration of that model. I tried this with a Toyota Tundra in their online builder, and there were no payload or towing packages, so there was no way to choose a better configuration than the base. We have seen some forum members unintentionally choose a relatively low-capacity configuration, so they are running out of capacity in a truck model which could be more capable.
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Old 02-14-2018, 04:49 PM   #33
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yet the new ford f150 bucks that trend, with like 3400 lbs payload for relatively base model with the ecoboost v6 turbo.
I don't know what is considered "relatively base model", but payloads in Ford's F-150 spec page (ignoring the Raptor play truck) range from 1,640 pounds to 3,270 pounds... all of which would be reduced by the weight of any options. EcoBoost models range from 1,640 pounds to 3,230 pounds (the V8 must be 40 pounds lighter than the EcoBoost 3.5 V6).

The payload packages (there are three package and wheel size combinations) are only available on 141" wheelbase and longer, and adding anything (bigger cabs, higher trims) other than the payload packages reduces payload... so yes, a basic truck can have high payload, and in fact it must be basic to have the highest payload. The only combinations with 3,000 pounds or more payload are regular cab trucks. The king of hauling is thus a 4X2 regular cab XL with 8-foot box, V8 (best) or 3.5 EcoBoost (close), Heavy Duty Payload Package, 18" wheels... and no other options.

I don't think many people want that basic truck for travelling with a trailer, and more common choices are SuperCrew or SuperCab with 4WD and a better trim level... but you can still get 2,950 pounds (less any option weight of course) of payload with a SuperCrew 4X4.
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Old 02-14-2018, 04:54 PM   #34
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I have a well equipped aluminum bodied 2017 Ford F-150 4x4 with the big ecoboost engine, largest cab, 5.5 ft box and it looks like I can carry 1779 pounds...total.
I would think that the sticker on the door frame is what the officer is going to be interested in when making a determination if you are overloaded. How can you argue...it’s in black and white.
I would be interested in see some door stickers of the smaller suvs that some people are using to tow 21 s with (and the front mount cargo box).
Tip: When driving just stay well away of 1/2 ton trucks towing fully loaded horse trailers. Nothing like being overloaded with shifting meat inside.
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:01 PM   #35
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I would think that the sticker on the door frame is what the officer is going to be interested in when making a determination if you are overloaded. How can you argue...it’s in black and white.
I agree that if it's not on a placard, it won't be of interest to enforcement officers. But the numbers which are important to them won't be for payload, because there's no reasonable way to unload everything and weigh it; instead, they will compare the axle weights to the GAWR values, and the total weight (on the tow vehicle axles) to the GVWR.
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:27 PM   #36
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The other sticker.
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:32 PM   #37
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I agree that if it's not on a placard, it won't be of interest to enforcement officers. But the numbers which are important to them won't be for payload, because there's no reasonable way to unload everything and weigh it; instead, they will compare the axle weights to the GAWR values, and the total weight (on the tow vehicle axles) to the GVWR.
True...but from where you come from I am sure you have seen monster trailers being towed and a 800 lb ATV in the back of the pickup bed.
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:46 PM   #38
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Since - although it's hard to tell at times - this is not the Ford F-150 Enthusiasts Forum, some "other brand" comparison numbers.

A 2018 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 has
  • lowest maximum payload of 1,470 pounds
  • highest maximum payload of 2,170 pounds
  • a Max Trailering Package available, but no payload package available

So the difference between GM and Ford is
  • a couple hundred pounds (probably due to the amount of aluminum), and
  • availability of a payload package.

The Silverado is updated for 2019 - including more aluminum - and may have higher payloads. The GMC Sierra is the same truck with different badges, trim, and options, so it presumably has the same payload.
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:48 PM   #39
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True...but from where you come from I am sure you have seen monster trailers being towed and a 800 lb ATV in the back of the pickup bed.
Yes... even two ATVs.
The enforcement officers will just run that rig over the truck scales and look at the axle loads. The rear axle GAWR is the most likely limit to be exceeded, but the truck's GVWR and both GAWR and GVWR of the trailer are all possibly in trouble as well.
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:50 PM   #40
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The other sticker.
That's the important one.
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