Tow vehicles????

[ronstew]

Yep, that's why your transmission has low gear settings. Riding the brakes can set you up for trouble.

[gbaglo]

What I've found interesting is although we have brake controllers, there doesn't seem to be any among us who feels that they have it set correctly. I've got the Prodigy and I've followed the instructions ( once ), but I still don't have confidence that I'm at the right setting. Also, if you need to adjust the brakes on the trailer after 300 miles, presumably, you should also reset the brake controller.

I've approached that stop sign you mention ( well, one similar ) after a long decent with a boat trailer and wondered if I was going to stop. I geared down and I tried to stay off the brakes, but that Subaru Legacy, with brake discs the size of bottle caps just couldn't handle it. On another occasion, towing the tent trailer, I found myself stuck in the slow lane going down the Coquihalla to the snow shed. I had a semi doing 40 kph in front of me and cars whipping by at 120 kph in the middle and left lane. I couldn't accelerate to get into the middle lane and had no option but to apply the brakes. I glazed brand new brake pads with that one application and had to have them replaced.

Loved the Subaru, but that was it for that "tow" vehicle.

That was many years ago and maybe Subaru has improved the braking on their vehicles.

baglo

[ronsmith]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

What I've found interesting is although we have brake controllers, there doesn't seem to be any among us who feels that they have it set correctly. I've got the Prodigy and I've followed the instructions ( once ), but I still don't have confidence that I'm at the right setting. Also, if you need to adjust the brakes on the trailer after 300 miles, presumably, you should also reset the brake controller.


baglo

Someone else that feels like me.
The instructions are obtuse... something about setting it so high you lockup-skid when applying the TV brakes at what? 20mph?

All I know is I like the brake set so that my TV is doing the main stopping and the trailer assists. You can apply the brakes and and then lift the peddle and not feel a thing.
Which may be bad thing for some people because not feeling anything may make you feel like its not working at all.
Every once in awhile going down the road I use the manual lever just to feel the braking drag coming from the trailer.. then I am ok that it is working.
If you set it higher it turns this around so that the truck assists the trailer. The trailer is pulling you back so that when you apply the brakes and lift the peddle before a complete stop you get a broadcasted "bump" right into your TV... brake, lift, bump, brake, lift, bump.
I have on occasion put on my brakes and used the brake control lever at the same time... like when I'm going down hill and a signal at the bottom turns red or sometimes just to add bit of drag when my down hill speed is getting up there.

Everyone will eventually find the seting what works for them

[Jim Bennett]

Tekonsha's instructions are quite clear. I really like the P3 controller. At 25 mph you set up the trailer brakes so they pull hard and stop you, but still not lock up. The boost setting really should not be used with trailers lighter then the tow. Essentially, the trailer brakes should be providing enough power to stop the trailer, and no more. While not having the trailer brakes set as high as they should be is not an issue most of the time, because most tow vehicles can still stop ok with the extra weight, BUT should you ever require emergency braking you WILL NOT be able to provide adequate braking. This requirement for emergency braking is exactly what the setup instructions are meaning to do, allow the trailer to stop its own weight without locking up the brakes, or relying on the tow brakes to do the job.

It should really have nothing to do with someone finding a setting that 'works' for them, but one that makes you as safe as possible on the road.

Adjusting the brakes as recommended by the manufacturer is another thing to make sure is done according to schedule, as this too affects the braking performance.

[Sandra L]

Originally Posted by escape artist

Hi: All... Never really thought much about trailer brakes or controllers till we went to Letchworth St. Pk. in N.Y. In Warsaw N.Y. I could have lit up a smoke without flickin' a Bic on the trailer brakes. A 15% grade with a stop sign at the bottom!!! YEE HAW!!! Welcome to Warsaw. Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie

Wow a 15% grade!! I'd probably suffered cardiac arrest. I stress at 7%. I was told to use a lower gear, and alternate tow and tug breaking on long downhill steep slopes to keep both brakes from overheating.

[ronsmith]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

Tekonsha's instructions are quite clear. I really like the P3 controller. At 25 mph you set up the trailer brakes so they pull hard and stop you, but still not lock up. The boost setting really should not be used with trailers lighter then the tow. Essentially, the trailer brakes should be providing enough power to stop the trailer, and no more. While not having the trailer brakes set as high as they should be is not an issue most of the time, because most tow vehicles can still stop ok with the extra weight, BUT should you ever require emergency braking you WILL NOT be able to provide adequate braking. This requirement for emergency braking is exactly what the setup instructions are meaning to do, allow the trailer to stop its own weight without locking up the brakes, or relying on the tow brakes to do the job.

It should really have nothing to do with someone finding a setting that 'works' for them, but one that makes you as safe as possible on the road.

Adjusting the brakes as recommended by the manufacturer is another thing to make sure is done according to schedule, as this too affects the braking performance.

I agree with almost everything said here. If you are new to trailering don't take anything I have posted as something you should do. However I disagree with this: "BUT should you ever require emergency braking you WILL NOT be able to provide adequate braking." This is like saying if you drive a pickup with 2000 lbs of bricks in the back that you WILL NOT be able to provide adequate braking. It is a legal load and within manufactures spec but there is no prodigy in the sky that can get you to stop in the same distance as you could stop before the load. So the driver will compensate by going slower and with more distance between him/herself and the car in front of him/her... at least those drivers with the innate or taught understanding of kinetics and inertia. It is a matter of the awareness of the dynamic mass surrounding you. Your braking will always be adequate if you are safe.

A few of us don't need to follow the Prodigy instructions religiously and I was posting an alternative which I hoped would explain why there is not real baseline and why we tend to find "something that works" for our rig.

I would close with this thought: if you are new to this then just slow down and keep your distances and don't rely on trailer brakes to do it for you. This is the safest thing to do... and follow the prodigy instructions!

Cheers

Ron

[ronsmith]

Originally Posted by Sandra L

Wow a 15% grade!! I'd probably suffered cardiac arrest. I stress at 7%. I was told to use a lower gear, and alternate tow and tug breaking on long downhill steep slopes to keep both brakes from overheating.

try this... 20% grade over potholes.
http://ronsalaska.blogspot.com/2009_07_24_archive.html
video about half way down

I was in 4wd low range (much lower than standard low gear).
Going down tightened me up big time.

[Jim Bennett]

The hundreds of thousands of miles I have pulled trailers of all sizes, plus extensive driver training I have taken in this area, have all taught me different then your advice, Ron.

While you may tow up to the towing capacity of the vehicle, combined a payload capacity (including the tongue weight) up to the GVWR of the vehicle, this in no way means that you can, or are permitted to do it without the aid of properly adjusted brakes. The combined weight may be able to be pulled, but the tow (in most cases) will not be able to provide adequate braking. To take it to an extreme, a tractor unit pulling a trailer with 25,000 lbs weight would never be able to stop the trailer even though it is rated to tow that amount.

I really don't want to bicker over silly details, my intent is just to state facts as I learned them, so I will now leave this discussion to rest, and just let others decide what they feel is the safest way to go.

[ronstew]

Perhaps changing the wording to "should you ever require emergency braking you WILL NOT be able to provide maximum braking" ?

[escape artist]

Hi: All... There has to be an Escape clause here... because as Groucho Marx said " There ain't no Sanity Clause"!!! Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie

[ronsmith]

Originally Posted by ronstew

Perhaps changing the wording to "should you ever require emergency braking you WILL NOT be able to provide maximum braking" ?

emoticon - the shaking head in agreement one

[jerry l elven]

First of all I Towed my 17'er with a Nissan Frontier with no problems except one or no I guess it was two, Then I guess I shoulden't call them problems I should call them grandkids. Or where to put them! So I now pull with a crew cab Nissan Titan. I've pulled this trailer also with a Ford Windstar. I do use a WDH and prodigy controller. I followed the instructions from prodigy and then I decited to set the brakes so when you used them it felt no different slowing down then It did when the trailer was not being towed, I figured that way I would not have to get use to a different feel in braking every time I hooked up or unhooked from the trailer.

[RonS]

Another towing question.

Talked to my mechanic today about pulling the 17B with my 09 Tacoma. He said the rear leaf springs are very wimpy and should be beefed up with an additional leaf inserted with some modification to the spring unit. He said it would raise the rear end a little and would handle much better with a firmer ride. Has anyone ever pursued anything like this? I know GaryH mentioned he pulls his 17B just fine with his FJ Cruiser. Do you think the suspensions are identical between these units? Any and all comments are greatly appreciated....Ron

I checked with the local Toyota dealer about the rear suspension on Tacomas and they have a TSB (I think it adds another leaf) for '07's (might be for earlier models too). Apparently the cure results in a pretty harsh ride. Nothing for 08's or later. You should keep in mind what you are going to be towing. If your tow was going to be 4500 - 5500 lbs, you might have an issue with a "soft" rear suspension, but the weight of a 17 is what, about 1900 lbs?? Might be a good idea to get your trailer and see if there is a problem before you make any suspension changes. I have a '08 Tacoma and we are getting a 19' Escape. I will add a WDH, but based on the feedback of other Tacoma, RAV, Pilot, etc. owners on this forum, I am not anticipating any issues.

[GaryH]

Originally Posted by RonS

Another towing question.

Talked to my mechanic today about pulling the 17B with my 09 Tacoma. He said the rear leaf springs are very wimpy and should be beefed up with an additional leaf inserted with some modification to the spring unit. He said it would raise the rear end a little and would handle much better with a firmer ride. Has anyone ever pursued anything like this? I know GaryH mentioned he pulls his 17B just fine with his FJ Cruiser. Do you think the suspensions are identical between these units? Any and all comments are greatly appreciated....Ron

I'm wondering if your mechanic was thinking of some of the old Toyotas? I had an '87 4Runner with lots of rear sag & had to add a new leaf spring. I did a (little) bit of searching this morning & found that the new 4Runner, Tacoma & FJ's all share the same frame, with some modifications for length. I don't think Toyota would put out a pickup that has weak springs. That being said, i admit i don't know too much on this whole issue. I do know that with my FJ, when i hook the trailer up, the rear goes down about 2". However, that's ok because when it's hooked up both the trailer & the FJ are sitting level (which is ideal). I think Ace Brown uses air bags on his FJ & is happy with them. Like others have said, best to wait untill the trailer is hooked up & take it for a drive before spending money on something that you may or may not need. Just my 2 cents, Gary

[RonS]

First of all I want to thank you two for responding. My mechanic has quite a bit of experience with Tacoma rear suspensions. He mentioned the older models definitely have more than their share of suspension issues. He did crawl under and look at the leaf springs and commented that with my topper that is currently on and weighs approx. 140#, I was sitting close to the overload spring.

I experimented with putting about 280# on the tail gate and the measurement at the hitch dropped 2". Not sure if that really is an accurate way in judging the real thing. I think I'll hold off on any leaf changes until I get back. I do not want to make any changes if it isn't necessary. If you guys aren't having problems, that's what I want to hear. And because of weather conditions we will be coming straight back without using it, unfortunately. So it should be at is lightest weight. Again, thank you for your input....Ron

[Jim Bennett]

RonS, when did you get Alf up on your tailgate?

[Jim Bennett]

Honda has a way of rating the tongue weight by measuring the amount the hitch drops. The 4WD model is rated for 450 lbs, and they use the following as a guideline. Not sure how accurate it is. I imagine as the vehicle ages, and the suspension softens a wee bit, this might change a bit.

150 lbs (68 kg) - 5/8’’
250 lbs (114 kg) - 1 1/4’’
350 lbs (159 kg) - 1 3/4’’
450 lbs (205 kg) - 2 1/4"

[RonS]

Now don't you be getting me in trouble. Having read earlier posts of Alf's I'm sure he is a very distinguished Canadian gentleman...Ron

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by RonS

Now don't you be getting me in trouble. Having read earlier posts of Alf's I'm sure he is a very distinguished Canadian gentleman...Ron

I would say he most definitely is too. Thus worthy of picking on, once in a while.