Towing an Escape 21: 4Runner or Tacoma? - Page 6 - Escape Trailer Owners Community

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Old 03-04-2014, 11:02 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
"If you want a Chrysler, Ford or GM full-size pickup truck rated under the new towing standard, it appears you'd have to wait until 2015 when Ford launches the new-generation F-Series. That's assuming the three companies stick to their positions and all bite the reality bullet at the same time."
Since only Ford is introducing a new model at this time, I see no reason to be optimistic that GM and Chrysler will change their ratings on their existing models at the time of the Ford introduction, even though they may have said they will... but maybe it will actually happen this time.

For those interested in the extreme end of the pickup truck towing range, I note that the Ram 3500's 30,000 pound rating and the similar rating to be expected of the next Ford F-450 are not subject to the SAE J2807 standard, because it is not intended for vehicles over 13,000 GCWR... which is a large fraction of pickups. Fortunately, tugs used for Escapes mostly fit within the range for which the standard applies.
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:13 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Catchlight View Post
At this point, the Tacoma with the towing package is worth a look, but I still don't understand how it can tow significantly better than a 4Runner when it's so similar mechanically.
My opinion continues to be that the Tacoma probably does not climb or accelerate significantly better (if it is even better at all) than the 4Runner, although is should be more stable. The rating is more likely related to stability or rear axle capacity than drivetrain performance.

Since we have mentioned the SAE J2807 standard, I note that one of the articles I skimmed today reminded me that the standard's hill-climbing test requires only that the rig maintain 40 mph (65 km/h) up a specific test road with an average grade of less than 5%. I believe that would fail to meet the performance expectations of many people.
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Old 03-05-2014, 02:00 AM   #53
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I have been towing a 19' with a 2012 Tacoma with 6 speed manual transmissionfor the last 2 years. I find that the combination is very stable, but I find power and torque to be disappointing. It is fine on the flat lands but for hills and inclines I find it is not able to maintain speed with the traffic flow, in fact I find that myself having to tuck in behind the 18 wheelers for anything over 5% climbs.
I used to tow with a 2008 Grand Cherokee 3l V6 diesel, this produced the best towing experience in terms of performance as well as mileage. This TV never broke out in a sweat, even going up the snowshed hill on the Coquahalla Hwy in BC it would only loose about 10kph from a 100kph (set on the cruise control).
I hope to go back to towing with a diesel, so I can enjoy the drive whilst towing the Escape 19.
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Old 03-05-2014, 09:41 AM   #54
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towing a 21

When I bought the 19 I wanted a TV that would do a good job up hills from sea level to 4000' and also go over the 11000' hills of Colorado while towing 4000# and not hold up traffic. I didn't want another full size pickup and I wanted better mileage than the Ford 150 offered or the Honda Ridgeline when towing and acceptable mileage when not towing. Someone suggested the Jeep Grand Cherokee, I've never owned a jeep before but I looked and bought. After 3 and 1/2 years and 60,000 miles, half the time towing the 19 or the 21 now, I'm sold and will probably buy another. The unit is 3' shorter than the 150 and narrower so it fits into the garage space with walk around room, it weighs 5300# so the trailer doesn't push me around ( I do use a WDH), and the Dodge 5.7 Hemi engine does all of the magic stuff, variable timing, shutting down 4 cylinders when not needed and a need for two plugs per cylinder. The result is a vehicle that drives well, Mercedes designed suspension (2 wheel drive), 21 to 23 mpg when not towing at the 75 mph limits plus, 13 to 16 mpg towing at the same speed limits, a cushion of 3000# of towing weights and a price that was a lot lower than any other vehicles that has that performance. We'll have our unit with the 21 in Texas, Utah, BC and Oregon this year if you want to see it.
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Old 03-05-2014, 12:23 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Gr8Escape View Post
I have been towing a 19' with a 2012 Tacoma with 6 speed manual transmission for the last 2 years. I find that the combination is very stable, but I find power and torque to be disappointing. It is fine on the flat lands but for hills and inclines I find it is not able to maintain speed with the traffic flow, in fact I find that myself having to tuck in behind the 18 wheelers for anything over 5% climbs.
I used to tow with a 2008 Grand Cherokee 3l V6 diesel, this produced the best towing experience in terms of performance as well as mileage. This TV never broke out in a sweat, even going up the snowshed hill on the Coquahalla Hwy in BC it would only loose about 10kph from a 100kph (set on the cruise control).
What engine speed do you use in the Tacoma to climb hills, when you need as much power as you can get to keep up? What engine speed did the Grand Cherokee run (I'm guessing it's an automatic left in Drive)? I'm curious about whether or not the potential of these engines is used.

Again referring to recent discussions of the SAE J2807 standard and expectations, a tug which can maintain 40 mph up a 5% incline (using whatever engine speed is required) without overheating or otherwise failing meets the SAE standard for hill-climbing performance; this may not be enough for some, and obviously would not be enough in this case... 90 km/h is 55 mph.
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Old 03-05-2014, 02:39 PM   #56
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towing a 21

The Cherokee runs at 1600 to 1800 Rpm most of the time because the torque curve is such that is all it needs. The hemi has almost 400# available, and the curve rises rapidly. I looked at diesels but the torque wasn't that much higher unless I was willing to jump up in size to larger truck. The V8 turbo Porsche sure looked good if price was no object.
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:09 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by azjack View Post
The Cherokee runs at 1600 to 1800 Rpm most of the time because the torque curve is such that is all it needs.
Thanks, Jack.
Do you mean the that the 5.7L Grand Cherokee is running 1600 to 1800 rpm while climbing those grades, or is that the typical level cruising engine speed?

Power is the product of torque and speed, so I agree that you only need to run the engine fast enough to get enough power. If the Grand Cherokee's 5.7L engine is putting out it's peak 390 lb-ft of torque at 1800 rpm (here's a calculator if you want one), it's producing about 100 kW or 134 hp... which any reasonable tug (including both the Tacoma and the 4Runner) would be able to match, although at a higher speed unless it is similarly large or turbocharged. My guess is that at 1800 rpm the 5.7L is short of the peak torque, and the engine speed is higher (and power significantly higher) while climbing steep grades at highway speed.
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:11 PM   #58
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towing21

It depends on the grade.
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:14 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by azjack View Post
The hemi has almost 400# available, and the curve rises rapidly. I looked at diesels but the torque wasn't that much higher unless I was willing to jump up in size to larger truck.
Turbocharging and displacement are the two paths to high torque, which is why the current Grand Cherokee turbodiesel has a bit higher peak torque than the 5.7 L non-turbo gasoline engine, despite being not much more than half the size (3.0 L). Either way works, although the torque curve is flatter with the turbos, since the turbo pushes the required air in with less reliance on tuning for a specific engine speed, and because they can push so much air in that that they the are limited to specific boost level, cutting the top of the torque curve flat.

I'm looking forward to hearing from Gr8Escape about some of the other engine alternatives to handle the same requirement.
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:18 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by azjack View Post
It depends on the grade.
jack
Thanks, Jack.

Steeper grade
= more power required
= higher engine speed

For many drivers and engine combinations, it seems to me that the willingness to use higher engine speed ends before enough power is obtained. Not with Jack's Hemi!
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