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Old 09-15-2016, 03:46 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_75 View Post
Southeast Toyota region ordered Toyotas only came with the under bumper hitch.
Our 2015 Highlander had the factory tow hitch through the bumper and 4 pin trailer plug which made changing over to a 7 pin easier. They are harder to find but they are out there.
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Old 09-15-2016, 04:29 PM   #22
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This thread caught my eye, and I thought I'd give you another option which might be less expensive .
We just returned from our maiden trip from Chilliwack with our new 19'.
My DH was also concerned about our tow vehicle, especially if we had to purchase another. I already had a 2010 Chevy traverse with the tow package. So, it's rated for up to 5200 pounds.
You can Google comparisons between the SUV's you've listed, along with the Traverse, and compare everything from cargo size to HP, to torque, to power ratios, etc. I just took a look at cars.axlegeeks.com, and was pleasantly surprised with the Chevy's attributes as compared to some Toyotas and Hondas.

So, we just got back from a 2300 mile trip across mountains, valleys, some with up to 10% grades. To our delight, (not to mention relief concerning our pocketbook), the Chevy towed admirably and effortlessly up and down the mountains of Washington, Montana and Idaho without any problems or concerns. In fact, I think we could have even handled the weight of a 21-foot, but I just wouldn't feel comfortable or confident doing that as a newbie.

Just to mention, we had the trailer tanks all about a third to a half full, most of the cabinets filled with kitchen or clothing items, as well as three suitcases and some boxes in our SUV ( crossover ).
I can't recall the exact price we paid, but know it was well under dealer invoice. I'm a good haggler, and also made the purchase at the end of the month in December, which gave the salesman more incentive to accept my lower price offer.
So, I just wanted to share our experience since we also are learning ourselves, and the question of a tow vehicle was foremost on our minds over the past week of travel !
Good luck with your decision and your forthcoming Escape. I hope you enjoy it as much as we have so far!
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Old 09-16-2016, 11:36 AM   #23
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I understand the point, but most Toyotas and many Hondas now have V6 engines and 6-speed (or more) transmissions; Lexus (which is Toyota) introduced the first 8-speed automatic (from any manufacturer) over a decade ago. Toyota does tend to be conservative and it attracts many practical buyers, but that doesn't mean that their products are all simplistic or outdated.

My Ford Focus, with its unreliable charging system (not just the alternator, but a faulty wiring harness and defective status indication) and failed front suspension components, was a long-established design of no more electrical or front suspension
complexity than a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic.

In passenger cars, the majority of models from the majority of manufacturers have no diesel engine option in North America. Even in full-size light pickup trucks, while Toyota does not offer a diesel, only Ram and Nissan (not Ford, not GM) offers one. In mid-size pickups, again Toyota does not offer a diesel, but only GM does - Nissan and Honda don't offer diesel, and Ford and Ram don't even sell that size of truck.
As always, good points Brian. I guess I'm just having a hard time believing these reliability studies. Consumer Reports asks readers to send a survey back. These are entirely readers of a magazine that rates products, which is a pretty unique subset of people. JD Powers surveys cover the first 90 days of ownership generally, and rely on people returning the survey voluntarily. As a former statistician and marketing research analyst I have a hard time with any survey that isn't a random sampling. People usually return surveys if they are either very happy or very unhappy.

I've owned 7 different Toyotas and Hondas since 1981. Sorry if I'm stepping on toes here because I know you guys all love them, but my experience has been that these were the most unreliable vehicles our family has owned except for a Mitsubishi Monero Sport that my son had. Blown transmissions, blown head gasket, oil leaks, water pumps, emissions issues, etc., etc. Our 2009 Yaris has had something like 5 safety recalls, and don't get me started on the A/C issues. My Volkswagen group cars (3 Audis and 2 VW's) have been much better, although the 3.0 supercharged A6 is delicate and eats brakes for breakfast so it is going back when the lease is done. My Ford truck was bulletproof (XL trim).

I guess the bottom line is that we are all ruled mostly by our past experiences. You will probably never buy another Ford, and I'll probably never buy another Toyota!
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Old 09-16-2016, 12:51 PM   #24
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I agree, both that some reliability surveys (particularly those from Consumer Reports) are pretty shaky statistically and logically, and that personal preferences are strongly driven by individual experiences.

Stepping back from both of these sources, I think it's worth noting that the vast majority of vehicles from every major manufacturer are amazingly reliable given their complexity, and highly capable compared to vehicles of the past. A buyer can just about throw a dart at a wall of every vehicle with sufficient rated towing and load capacity, and it will work.
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Old 09-16-2016, 03:31 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
I agree, both that some reliability surveys (particularly those from Consumer Reports) are pretty shaky statistically and logically, and that personal preferences are strongly driven by individual experiences.

Stepping back from both of these sources, I think it's worth noting that the vast majority of vehicles from every major manufacturer are amazingly reliable given their complexity, and highly capable compared to vehicles of the past. A buyer can just about throw a dart at a wall of every vehicle with sufficient rated towing and load capacity, and it will work.
I am pretty sure I wont change your mind,



but for anyone else reading this forum...

I would disagree with you, based on being a Consumer Reports reader for basically most of my life.....

If you dont think 3/4 of a MILLION people surveyed in their most recent test is shakey statistically, we'll just agree to disagree.

Anyone can read more here:

CU auto testing

reliability:

and I quote

"The latest large-scale survey collected detailed data on more than 740,000 vehicles, giving us a solid source for chronicling past reliability and predicting future performance."

Guide to Car Reliability | Owner Satisfaction - Consumer Reports

and testing new cars:

How Consumer Reports Tests Cars - Consumer Reports

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Old 09-16-2016, 04:25 PM   #26
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I am pretty sure I wont change your mind,
If you dont think 3/4 of a MILLION people surveyed in their most recent test is shakey statistically, we'll just agree to disagree.
I think every survey should be taken with a grain of salt. There was a great article in the Globe and Mail last year talking about the challenges facing survey companies and pollsters. Their election predictions have been out to lunch lately and it is due to difficulties in finding reliable data sources. Back in the age of landline telephones they found that people would answer and gladly participate in surveys. Now they struggle to find ways to connect with certain demographics of the population such as people with only a mobile phone and who screen calls using call display. People are also less willing to participate and they are finding they have to offer incentives (SBUX gift cards, etc) and this is skewing the results.

Survey says: The future of polling is hard to*predict - The Globe and Mail

I would guess that the reader surveys face similar challenges. If I was one of the people suffering through say multiple transmission failures in a single year that have plagued some vehicles recently than I would definitely respond. If I was happy with my vehicle and didn't have any problems than I may not be as motivated to respond. This would skew the results.
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Old 09-16-2016, 05:35 PM   #27
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We won't get our 19 until next year but we just bought our tow vehicle.
I searched a bunch of sites like autotrader and cars.com looking for older, but still new cars. Some models have 2017 versions out now, so dealers were more willing to deal on past years.
I was looking nationwide and prepared to travel a a bit for a good deal, but found something 2 hours away. We just purchased a still new on the lot 2015 Grand Cherokee.
The best deal I could find locally was through Costco, it was below invoice plus some Chrysler and dealer money. We were looking at a 2016 Limited with the tow package and a V6 gas engine, but paid about $1000.00 less for a 2015 with the same options and a diesel ($4,500.00 option). All in all a little over $9,000.00 off the sticker.
I'm sure the dealer still made money on the sale, but for once I think we got a decent deal.

On paper it's overkill, but I can't tell you for sure how it tows yet.
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Old 09-16-2016, 05:59 PM   #28
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There are so many ways a dealer can make a profit on a car sale. Having examined the books of over 100 car dealers during my careen I came away amazed at the various kickbacks and accounting tricks to make a profit. Selling at low sticker price means very little, even selling below actual dealer cost means nothing as at the end of the month and at the end of the year, manufacturers will provide kickbacks to dealers to alleviate most shortages. The manufacturer is where money is being made.
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Old 09-16-2016, 06:05 PM   #29
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Ah oh, Consumer Report discussion! Last time I stuck up for Consumer Report around here I was roasted....

But I emerged mostly unscathed and still rely on CR, as I have for decades...
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Old 09-16-2016, 06:07 PM   #30
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It is a good starting place....
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Old 09-16-2016, 06:50 PM   #31
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Two cents:
When we moved away from VW's decades ago, I asked a friend who owned an auto parts store about reliable brands. His answer (which has not changed in successive years when I have re-asked the question): He sells the least repair parts for Honda and Toyotas.
We and our family members have owned a bunch of Hondas and three Toyotas. Hondas: replace the timing belt and water pump at about 100k miles & you're good to go. Toyotas: 1985 Camry trans failure at 90k miles. Prius and Corolla are less than 100k miles and doing fine.
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Old 09-16-2016, 07:34 PM   #32
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I have always assumed that CU also uses Carfax data and can mine it for reliability.
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Old 09-16-2016, 07:38 PM   #33
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A friend is an experienced auto mechanic who has worked for several dealers and private shops and he drives an older Toyota Sequoia to tow his trailer. He has stated Toyotas are the most reliable. When I compare my vehicle ownership experiences with what Consumer Reports states for reliability I seem to come to similar conclusions. Our Jeep GC's we owned towed well when they were not in the shop, our Honda's were pretty reliable, our Nissan not so much, and our Toyota has been the best so far.
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Old 09-16-2016, 07:41 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Losangeles View Post
Anyone can read more here:

CU auto testing

reliability:

and I quote

"The latest large-scale survey collected detailed data on more than 740,000 vehicles, giving us a solid source for chronicling past reliability and predicting future performance."

Guide to Car Reliability | Owner Satisfaction - Consumer Reports

and testing new cars:

How Consumer Reports Tests Cars - Consumer Reports

Well, the text "CU auto testing" and "reliability" are not links to anything, and I waited several minutes for the two linked pages (re: reliability, testing) to load anything, with only blank results. At first I thought that they were probably for CU subscribers only... which is the problem with their surveys: they are only of CU members, which is very far from a representative cross-section. After another extended attempt (while other web traffic was working fine) an article finally loaded - I guess they didn't read their own consumer advice for buyers of web hosting services!

The auto testing facilities and methods which they describe sound good, but decades of questionable published reviews destroy the confidence of many of us in the results. Maybe they're good now.

Here's the survey problem, from the CU reliability page:
Quote:
Consumer Reports surveys our magazine and website subscribers...
Anyway, all objective input is valuable, so I'm not suggesting that CU subscribers should disregard CU's auto advice... just don't take it as the ultimate authority.
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Old 09-16-2016, 08:24 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
Anyway, all objective input is valuable, so I'm not suggesting that CU subscribers should disregard CU's auto advice... just don't take it as the ultimate authority.
I start a lot of my shopping research on consumer reports. To me it's a valuable resource and I make an effort to take part in their surveys. I try be honest and accurate, good or bad.
However taking the surveys has actually given me the proverbial grain of salt to take with their advice. Last year for example, I couldn't complete the survey until I entered the gas milage for my fully electric car.
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Old 09-16-2016, 08:28 PM   #36
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I have always assumed that CU also uses Carfax data and can mine it for reliability.
I haven't seen a real (as opposed to advertising example) Carfax report, but I have similar CarProof reports for two cars I was considering (one of which I purchased) in my most recent round of shopping. There is no reliability information in these reports, and even some of the possible information is absent; they contain only insurance claims, liens, and registrations. A vehicle could have broken down daily, and at least CarProof would provide no indication of that... and how would it? There is no reason for dealer or other service shops to submit maintenance, repair, or warranty claim information to an outside party, such as Carfax or CarProof. The car which I purchased was serviced regularly at the dealership where is was first purchased (and where I bought it used after it was traded in) and the CarProof report gives no indication of that.

Car history reports may lack key data, investigation finds - Manitoba - CBC News
... so these reports are not even reliable sources of collision data. Reliability data is not even mentioned in this article, because the reports don't contain any of that.
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Old 09-16-2016, 08:35 PM   #37
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I start a lot of my shopping research on consumer reports. To me it's a valuable resource and I make an effort to take part in their surveys. I try be honest and accurate, good or bad.
That makes sense to me.

Quote:
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However taking the surveys has actually given me the proverbial grain of salt to take with their advice. Last year for example, I couldn't complete the survey until I entered the gas milage for my fully electric car.
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Old 09-16-2016, 11:21 PM   #38
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not scientific, but in the recent past prior to shopping at the dealer went to several of the more reputable auto repair shops (if there is such a thing) in the city...walked in and where possible got permission to ask the mechanics ...of the top 3 brand full size trucks what brands do you repair most with major repairs and what brand the least...GM the most repairs, Ford, then Ram with the least...being an auto repair shop and not a dealer shop these are probably major out of warranty repairs...yes they had their favorites if they owned a truck but that was not the question asked and yes more Fords and GM are sold than Ram. The answers though pretty much aligned with previous experiences...owned a GM truck and it had a major problem after a week off the showroom floor, owned a Ford Explorer for many years but like a lot of people said would happen...the front end suspension/steering stuff had to be rebuilt/replaced at about 100K miles and the head gaskets were next in line.... never owned a Ram so what the heck...giving it a try...if it don't work out maybe someday a Toyota.
The GM Corvette is ok but there ain't no trailer hitch.....
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Old 09-17-2016, 02:16 PM   #39
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not scientific, but in the recent past prior to shopping at the dealer went to several of the more reputable auto repair shops (if there is such a thing) in the city...:
That's better than personal ancedotes, but it may say as much about dealer service as it does about the trucks: perhaps the local Ford dealer(s) have better service departments than the GM dealers, so most of the Ford trucks needing repair don't appear in the independent shops?

A neighbor of mine is a heavy-duty mechanic and does auto repair jobs out of his home as well. He says the Ford trucks (he sees mostly SuperDuties, not F-150s) are particularly bad for front-end wear and failure, at far short of 100,000 miles. It really depends who you ask.

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Originally Posted by freespirit View Post
The GM Corvette is ok but there ain't no trailer hitch...
Ah, but it can. One of the most interesting examples is the Corvette used to tow a Corvette-themed (with Corvette engine) ski boat:

Yes, the 'Vette is really towing that boat. I'm not suggesting this.
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Old 09-17-2016, 03:17 PM   #40
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Consumer reports is a great magazine but it's not always reliable. Most Fords are sold for fleets and that's where the reliability issue changes. If a person buys a truck and carrys a 25 pound bag of dog food and two 25 pound bags of potting soil once a year it's not the same as someone who uses a truck for a mobile tire repair with toolboxes and on the highway all the time.
Government agencies and companies depend on their trucks for reliability and the speed of their repairs.
Ford sold over 780,000 trucks last year compared to Toyota at 118,000. Most of those Fords were sold for commercial purposes. Of course the Super Duty is the one mechanics and parts dealers see the most, there's over 650,000 more Fords than Toyotas!
I've done the research and asked the questions and the F-150 is the truck for me. Here's the facts.

Best-Selling Pickup Trucks: December 2015 - PickupTrucks.com News
https://www.cars.com/articles/what-w...1420683052307/
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