Battery Monitor

[HABBERDABBER]

I use the plug-in el cheapo voltage meter that goes into the Escape installed 12V receptacle mounted in the dinette bench.


Whether I am plugged in WITH or WITHOUT the battery disconnect switch ON or OFF, when I first plug in voltage reads 14.5V-ish and later drops to 13.6V.


Is this logical? Is the converter programmed to run this routine? I wouldn't EXPECT a 14.5V charge voltage if the batteries are disconnected.


Just curious on this one. Got a notion?

[Vermilye]

If it is with the stock WFCO converter, I'm surprised, although that is what it is suppose to do. I haven't seen mine ever go over 13.6V. With the Progressive Dynamics replacement, it often hits 14.6V.

[HABBERDABBER]

Jon,
Yes, it is a WFCO model 8955PEC, stock Escape supplied. I'll look for a manual on-line. None came with the used rig.


bon voyage,

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by HABBERDABBER

Jon,
Yes, it is a WFCO model 8955PEC, stock Escape supplied. I'll look for a manual on-line. None came with the used rig.


bon voyage,

https://wfcoelectronics.com/product-...-60022f4a4312f

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

If you store The battleborns in the trailer for over winter. The BMS willl stop the discharge at -4F. At that temp and below the battery monitor would shut down due to loss of power . It would be re powered as it warmed up.I am not sure how that would read on Victron monitor. How do people deal with this in cold climates? I know if Jon is home in NY it has not got that cold Yet so This has nothing to do with his problem. there is alot of people in the northern states that see these temp several times a winter.According to battle born here is there temp specs for there BMS
Temperature

High temperature: > 135F
The BMS will not allow a charging or discharging current.

Low temperature: < 25F
The BMS will not allow a charging current. Charging current will be allowed again at 32F
The BMS will allow a discharge current down to -4F before shutting down

[Vermilye]

I'm not sure whether I should find a different thread (or start a new one) for this, but since this thread is where I started (https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...tml#post368555) I decided to catch up the results.

I found the batteries dropping at a faster rate than expected even when charged to 100%. Called Battleborn & they asked me to top off the batteries, then remove them from the trailer and each other. I did, and the 3 day drop is less than .1 volts on each battery. The conclusion is that there was at least a one amp hour draw with the battery disconnect switch open. No idea why it doesn't show on the 712 battery monitor, but the possibilities include the battery monitor itself, the "keep settings" connection to the radio, and the Victron solar controller (the solar panels were disconnected, but the controller still connected to the batteries). I'll explore the wiring to check if there is anything else that might have caused the problem, but it doesn't seem to be a battery problem.

[Centex]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

... The conclusion is that there was at least a one amp hour draw with the battery disconnect switch open. No idea why it doesn't show on the 712 battery monitor, but the possibilities include the battery monitor itself, the "keep settings" connection to the radio, and the Victron solar controller (the solar panels were disconnected, but the controller still connected to the batteries)....

Just seeking a bit of clarification, Jon, as I follow your situation with interest ...

• From your starting post I understood that the battery monitor and the "keep settings" (+) radio wire were the only things connected to the battery (+) before the disconnect switch. Should I understand correctly now that the Solar Controller (+) is also connected to the battery (+) before the disconnect switch?
• Is the radio (-) wire (I assume it has only one) connected to the "Load Side" of the shunt, or connected to the battery (-) before the shunt?

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by Centex

Just seeking a bit of clarification, Jon, as I follow your situation with interest ...

• From your starting post I understood that the battery monitor and the "keep settings" (+) radio wire were the only things connected to the battery (+) before the disconnect switch. Should I understand correctly now that the Solar Controller (+) is also connected to the battery (+) before the disconnect switch?
• Is the radio (-) wire (I assume it has only one) connected to the "Load Side" of the shunt, or connected to the battery (-) before the shunt?

Yes, the solar controller is connected directly to the battery. This is how Escape wires it, and I kept that connection in my update. All I did was change the thermal circuit breaker to a fuse. If I don't change things in the Spring, I'll have to remember to pull the fuse for winter storage.

ALL negative connections, including the radio, go to the non battery side of the shunt. The only connection on the battery side is the battery. The possible exception is the negative connection to the Victron 712. The negative connection for it is built into the shunt, and I have not checked to see which side it is connected to.

Again, I do not understand why the 712 does not show the current draw when the battery disconnect switch is open for the devices still connected. According to Battleborn, the two battery voltages are close enough that they are not fighting each other. Since the batteries are holding voltage as expected when out of the trailer, the only conclusion I can come up with is there is more of a current draw the I expected, and for some reason, it does not show on the battery monitor.

My current plan is to review the wiring in the Spring, and measure the actual current draw of any items that are not disconnected by the battery disconnect switch. At the current 10°F, I am not going to deal with it until things warm up.

[Centex]

Thanks for the clarification.

Originally Posted by Vermilye

... Again, I do not understand why the 712 does not show the current draw when the battery disconnect switch is open for the devices still connected.

Puzzling indeed, that's why I'm following with interest.

I note in Victron's BMV-712 Smart documentation (Technical Data page attached):

• Readout resolution: Current (0 ... 10A) = +/-0.01A (10mA)
• BMV-712 Smart supply current (no alarm condition, backlight off) @Vin=12 VDC is 1mA, with or without the bi-stable relay energized.

Recognizing that "readout resolution" may be different from 'internal calculating resolution / sensitivity' I wonder if perhaps the very small (mA in aggregate) loads you have with your battery 'disconnected' fall below what the 712 can ultimately monitor and report even though the cumulative effect of those loads (Amp hours) over a long time interval is significant for your interest?

Originally Posted by Vermilye

... At the current 10°F, I am not going to deal with it until things warm up.

That I can surely understand!

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

Yes, the solar controller is connected directly to the battery. This is how Escape wires it, and I kept that connection in my update. All I did was change the thermal circuit breaker to a fuse. If I don't change things in the Spring, I'll have to remember to pull the fuse for winter storage.

ALL negative connections, including the radio, go to the non battery side of the shunt. The only connection on the battery side is the battery. The possible exception is the negative connection to the Victron 712. The negative connection for it is built into the shunt, and I have not checked to see which side it is connected to.

Again, I do not understand why the 712 does not show the current draw when the battery disconnect switch is open for the devices still connected. According to Battleborn, the two battery voltages are close enough that they are not fighting each other. Since the batteries are holding voltage as expected when out of the trailer, the only conclusion I can come up with is there is more of a current draw the I expected, and for some reason, it does not show on the battery monitor.

My current plan is to review the wiring in the Spring, and measure the actual current draw of any items that are not disconnected by the battery disconnect switch. At the current 10°F, I am not going to deal with it until things warm up.

I installed a 30 amp breaker on the solar controller output to the batteries as well as a 30 amp breaker on the solar panel to controller. By turn off the output breaker, I can isolate the solar controller from the batteries when I don't have the solar panels in use.

There is a good chance that your battery drain is coming from the Victron solar controller as it is keeping the bluetooth and monitoring circuits alive even though the solar panels are not connected.

As for why the 712 is not showing the current draw, did you have the solar controller on when doing the 712 zero current calibration?

https://community.victronenergy.com/...libration.html

[tacchino]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

There is a good chance that your battery drain is coming from the Victron solar controller as it is keeping the bluetooth and monitoring circuits alive even though the solar panels are not connected.

https://community.victronenergy.com/...libration.html

That makes a lot of sense, hadn't thought about that draw.

[Centex]

Attached for consideration is a scheme I've proposed for managing complete disconnect of solar and/or inverter/converter systems from the battery bank selectively. This by using a Blue Sea multi-battery "Selector" in lieu of the basic "On/Off" battery disconnect switch on the battery(+) side. Full control at one accessible switch without pulling any fuses/tripping any breakers.

When set to "Off" the only thing on the battery(+) is the emergency brake breakaway switch and the 712 monitor itself (wire from shunt direct to battery(+) terminal). The Solar Controller is isolated from the battery. Simply toggle the selector to "Set 1" for connection of the Solar Controller only for 'off season' solar charging if desired.

As always (and as Jon has it) all negative wires are connected on the "Load Side" of the shunt connected to the battery(-) terminal, thereby allowing the 712 monitor to report correctly within its capabilities for all conditions.

Note in my illustration the system uses a converter separate from the DC distribution panel, but the concept would be the same with a WFCO-type all-in-one converter/DC fuse panel on selector switch terminal "2".

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

Yes, the solar controller is connected directly to the battery. This is how Escape wires it, and I kept that connection in my update. All I did was change the thermal circuit breaker to a fuse. If I don't change things in the Spring, I'll have to remember to pull the fuse for winter storage

if the solar controller current doesn't go 'through' the 712, then the 712 can't see it.

so the 'ground' or negative wire of the solar controller should be connected to the 712, and NOT directly to the battery ground post.

[battery -]----(712)----[solar controller - AND everything else -]

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

would it make sense to test the battery 3 day voltage drop But with them Wired in parallel ? That way it would rule out the internal BMS . If batteries are fine The results should be the same. Just my thought.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Centex

Attached for consideration is a scheme I've proposed for managing complete disconnect of solar and/or inverter/converter systems from the battery bank selectively. This by using a Blue Sea multi-battery "Selector" in lieu of the basic "On/Off" battery disconnect switch on the battery(+) side. Full control at one accessible switch without pulling any fuses/tripping any breakers.

When set to "Off" the only thing on the battery(+) is the emergency brake breakaway switch and the 712 monitor itself (wire from shunt direct to battery(+) terminal). The Solar Controller is isolated from the battery. Simply toggle the selector to "Set 1" for connection of the Solar Controller only for 'off season' solar charging if desired.

As always (and as Jon has it) all negative wires are connected on the "Load Side" of the shunt connected to the battery(-) terminal, thereby allowing the 712 monitor to report correctly within its capabilities for all conditions.

Note in my illustration the system uses a converter separate from the DC distribution panel, but the concept would be the same with a WFCO-type all-in-one converter/DC fuse panel on selector switch terminal "2".

That is very creative. You are going to need that diagram in the trailer to remember what your switch positions are!

[Centex]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

..... You are going to need that diagram in the trailer to remember what your switch positions are!

That's what the 'plain language label' noted in the text for each setting is for; those will be at each position on the flush-mounted switch panel in lieu of the 1,2,1+2 provided by Blue Sea

[CoolCampingKid]

As I recall the propane detector stays powered up even when the battery disconnect is off. That will draw power too.

[John in Santa Cruz]

propane detectors draw like 90mA, which is 0.09 amps. would take like 1000 hours to suck down 90AH (yes, I know, AH is not very linear), thats about 42 days....

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

Originally Posted by Centex

Attached for consideration is a scheme I've proposed for managing complete disconnect of solar and/or inverter/converter systems from the battery bank selectively. This by using a Blue Sea multi-battery "Selector" in lieu of the basic "On/Off" battery disconnect switch on the battery(+) side. Full control at one accessible switch without pulling any fuses/tripping any breakers.

When set to "Off" the only thing on the battery(+) is the emergency brake breakaway switch and the 712 monitor itself (wire from shunt direct to battery(+) terminal). The Solar Controller is isolated from the battery. Simply toggle the selector to "Set 1" for connection of the Solar Controller only for 'off season' solar charging if desired.

As always (and as Jon has it) all negative wires are connected on the "Load Side" of the shunt connected to the battery(-) terminal, thereby allowing the 712 monitor to report correctly within its capabilities for all conditions.

Note in my illustration the system uses a converter separate from the DC distribution panel, but the concept would be the same with a WFCO-type all-in-one converter/DC fuse panel on selector switch terminal "2".

I trying to under the PV solar switching . If your switching after the solar controller (charging wires) wont the controller still have power all the time? On the other hand if your switching the power into the controller you panels would be feeding a controller with no power. Maybe I am missing something?

[Centex]

Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY

I trying to under the PV solar switching . If your switching after the solar controller (charging wires) wont the controller still have power all the time? On the other hand if your switching the power into the controller you panels would be feeding a controller with no power. Maybe I am missing something?

If I understand you are talking about power to the controller from the PV array? The Battery Master Switch I posit has nothing to do with that at all.

My 'Battery Master Switch' only bears on connections to the battery. The purpose is to control charging sources TO the battery and potential loads (discharges) FROM the battery, nothing else.

Tdf-texas posited in post #50 above that the controller may place a load on the battery even absent input from the PV array. If that's the case, my Battery Master Switch would eliminate that load on the battery when set 'Off / Disconnected'.

As an aside (unrelated to Jon's mystery battery load / unanticipated discharge) my overall scheme includes separate switches to isolate each PV panel from the controller. A recent version of that evolving overall scheme can be seen here if interested.