Lower insulation on the Escape 21'

[godspeed]

We are ordering our new Escape 21' and have opted for the insulation and double pane windows. Does anyone have the lower insulation package? We are thinking to do some winter camping once in awhile. Would appreciate any feedback on this option. Does it work better. Is it worth the extra money?

[thiggins]

We ordered it, and we pickup our 21 in June. I know from camping in our Casita that the floor will get pretty dang cold, even in not-so-cold weather.

[Losangeles]

we got the under body insulation on our 21'

so glad we did

cooler in summer

warmer in winter

the floor is substantially warmer than without it, for sure, i'm confident.

a bit quieter inside - because... physics!

adds about 40 lbs... i'm ok with that.

also protects some things a bit from road gators.

also helps keep things from freezing when hovering just below freezing.

however some people dont like it as in the unlikely event you need to fix something in the belly, it is covered in foam.

I'm ok with it... as they take photos of the belly before foam goes on (althought i asked them to just in case - as a reminder)

and the foam could be cut away as need be.



john

[wdr2]

During our first significant outing in our 2012 19 Escape, we woke up to 2in of snow (Arches National Park) and a very cold floor. When Escape started offering the spray foam insulation, we stopped by Chilliwack and had the foam installed. The trailer floor was much warmer. As a bonus, the insulation reduces outside noise. We pick up our new 21 in 2 weeks and yes we ordered the foam insulation.

[John in Santa Cruz]

to dredge up an older thread...

has anyone had any maintenance issues aggravated by the foam? for instance, tracing down propane or water leaks?

[padlin]

I had to cut some off to replace a broken holding tank gate. Not hard to remove, taping up and spraying replacement foam back on was a bit of a pain though. The foam added a few hours to the job.

[AllanEdie]

We will be ordering it on our 2018 21. As others have mentioned, it can be cut away for repair work. On the other hand, it may protect things enough to avoid some repairs...

I would be more concerned that having it cover things might complicate location of leaks, but am hopeful that knowing exactly where stuff is beneath it will assist with that issue.

One other issue that comes to mind, unfortunately, is that if the foam separates from copper propane lines, and water gets in there, odds are high that this will result in corrosion of the copper and eventual perforation of the tube. Been close to that issue with our camper. Any experience here with that issue? It would take several years.

[cpaharley2008]

Copper does not rust and the propane lines underneath maybe cast pipe with copper only inside?

[padlin]

This is pre foam, the lines look to be copper covered with what looks like plastic wire loom.

[AllanEdie]

Actually, copper does corrode, it just requires trace amounts of acid in the water. The copper condensate line on the high efficiency furnace in our house failed completely from this problem. By the time the issue was detected, portions of the line were almost completely dissolved. The acid apparently was generated simply from interior air in the house which contaminated the condensate forming on the condenser. I would guess that this condensate water would be a fair bit cleaner than the stuff coming off a road surface.

In the camper, the propane line was laid across the top of our plastic water tank, which has a slightly concave surface which apparently would collect condensation at times - there was certainly no other source of moisture that I could detect - the tank is in the interior of the camper with no possible moisture source other than condensation. Where the copper line touched the concave surface, the surface of the tank had an area with heavy green stain from copper corrosion, and the copper line was pitted. It had not yet perforated, and the pitting didn't seem deep enough yet to be a hazard, so I simply bent the line to lift it away from the surface of the tank, and put supports under it to keep it lifted. Had I not found and corrected the issue when I did, I am sure that the line would have eventually failed from corrosion exactly as the line on our furnace did. Presumably, contamination of the condensation on the tank also came from interior air.

I will be paying careful attention to the location and material used for the foamed in propane lines on our 21. Fortunately for me, and less so for long term owners who purchase the trailer from us some time down the road, failure of the copper lines is unlikely to happen soon enough to occur while I own the trailer.

[cpaharley2008]

My copper gutters on my house are over 70 years old, course some leak but only where the solder joints came apart. Perhaps depends on the metal thickness....

[KarenH]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

My copper gutters on my house are over 70 years old...

Wow! I didn't even know there were such things. And you're lucky no one has stolen them. I would love to see a picture of these as I'll bet they're beautiful with their patina.

[cpaharley2008]

Here you go, from the garage

[Fox hunt]

wow beautiful!

[KarenH]

Truly beautiful! Thank you. And that looks like a slate roof, too. The copper is not the only thing green here.

[cpaharley2008]

Yeppers, delta slate from Susquehanna River and fieldstone from local farm fields , and copper gutters were all used in the construction, both garage and house match. I could not afford to replace the roof If I had to.....

[Brian B-P]

The patina on weathered copper is corrosion. To some extent, it reduces further corrosion, which is how copper roofing and gutters work for a long time. I wouldn't want to depend on this to contain a flammable gas under pressure (even the very low pressure of the trailer's LP system) - avoiding corrosion is much better.

[Micheal K]

Originally Posted by AllanEdie

Actually, copper does corrode, it just requires trace amounts of acid in the water. The copper condensate line on the high efficiency furnace in our house failed completely from this problem. By the time the issue was detected, portions of the line were almost completely dissolved. The acid apparently was generated simply from interior air in the house which contaminated the condensate forming on the condenser. I would guess that this condensate water would be a fair bit cleaner than the stuff coming off a road surface.

High efficiency (condensing) boilers and furnaces allow for the condensation of the exhaust gas on the heat exchanger in the combustion chamber. The phase change from gas to liquid is where the extra heat comes from to make the efficiency gains over traditional designs. The condensate is quite acidic and the combustion chamber and heat exchanger must use materials that can withstand it - typically stainless steel and possibly plastic. Aluminum and copper tube heat exchangers have been tried on condensing boilers but as far as I know, they all had reliability issues due to corrosion.

I'm surprised you have a copper condensate drain line, they are typically plastic because, as you found, copper will corrode from combustion condensate.

Please note, I'm only talking about the drain for combustion condensate. It is different from the drain for Air Conditioning condensate.

[AllanEdie]

We don't have a copper condensate line any more, it was replaced with plastic when the original one failed. Unfortunately, the original copper line went into the concrete floor to a floor drain trap, so the new plastic one had to be installed on top of the floor as far as the drain. I was less than amused, but it is just in the furnace room.

[AllanEdie]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

My copper gutters on my house are over 70 years old, course some leak but only where the solder joints came apart. Perhaps depends on the metal thickness....

Very pretty gutters, I too am surprised that the metal thieves have not paid you a visit.

Regarding the difference in corrosion, I think the problem is not as simple as metal thickness. I suspect that actually sitting for periods of time in liquid water is part of the picture, no doubt accompanied by the nature of contaminants in the water. The copper propane lines on the outside of our camper were exposed to rain and road mist for many years and show absolutely no sign of the pitting that occurred in the line touching the water tank.

I ran into some information on corrosion of buried copper lines, and it is surprising how many different factors come into the problem. For example, it seems that an oxygen differential between the top and bottoms of a wet line can set up some sort of corrosion process. Anyway, it is clear to me that copper line is subject to significant corrosion, and I suspect that long term exposure to contaminated water trapped beneath foam could be a problem.

If anyone here has pulled or accidentally knocked foam off one of these lines after several years of use, I would be very interested to hear what they found. If the foam was still chemically adhered to the copper and the copper was not discolored green, that would be encouraging. If on the other hand, the foam was not adhered, and there was sign of green discoloration, that would indicate that corrosion was underway.