sanitizing tank and lines

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by Bobbito

A trailer is more susceptible to microorganism water supply growth than your home because:

1. Water sitting in the tank is stagnant when the trailer is not in motion. Even drawing water from the tank isn't likely to prevent the bacteria growing on surfaces over time. If you had a holding tank as part of your home water system it would also be more susceptible to microorganism colonizing.



2. Bleach (hypochlorite) in chlorinated water from your home supply will be neutralized by heat or light, or evaporate into empty space in the trailer's tank if left standing.This allows the organisms to grow and colonize the system unless the water is circulating adequately and frequently.



3. I'm only guessing at this, but perhaps the speed at which water circulates through your house's water pipes is so much faster than in your trailer that it scrubs away biomasses that can form when water sits in them for long periods of time. Or is it that copper might inhibit the growth? I will see if I can find something on this.

Added later:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti...ties_of_copper


Bob K

Your point 2 is one that for me makes good sense to me in relation to my query, Bob, at least with my understanding. With the water tank on our trailers, it would be more like an open system, with any of the added treatment chemicals dissipating while the water just sits, allowing these bad organisms to grow.

I know in my home, there is little copper left, with mostly PEX piping now. All newer homes in the last 20 years around here are pretty much all PEX too.

Another question I have while we seem to have a knowledgeable audience here, is just how bad for us are these organisms that can grow in water. I think back to all the farms folk I know, where their water was just pumped up and used, or drawn from streams or springs, without any treatment, and they had no issues.

A group of friends of ours in the Shuswap in BC, near Scotch Creek for those that know the area, draw their water from a creek, a drink it as it is. I know that some folks not used to drinking it can react, though the folks their are quite used to it, and don't react at all. What I am wondering, is can people develop a tolerance to these organisms that are found in water, and is there still potential harm to them.

As well, when I venture deep into the backcountry, I regularly drink from streams and mountain lakes, though if I think the source may be sketchy (though this is just using hunches, nothing at all scientific) I will then use a filter for drinking water.

I guess where I am really going with this, is that I do want to be safe, but at the same time I don't want to be bothered with worry when I don't need to be. I prefer chillin' to worryin'.

[gharper]

People in good health can withstand some exposure to waterborne micro-organisms (depending on the infection), the young, old and those with low immune systems are more likely unable to tolerate any type of infection. We are fortunate in Canada/US where we have public services that are mandated to ensure safe water supply, in a third world country people are much less fortunate and their morbidity and mortality is effected.

If you haven't got sick from drinking frequently from a mountain stream or using untreated and unmonitored water you are probably lucky or got an infection and didn't know it. A waterborne giardia infection, the most common waterborne illness, in a young person can impact their health and result in compromised growth and development. Giardiasis can go away on it's own but can also cause lasting effects if it is symptomatic and goes on untreated.

Filtration or use of chemical treatments alone do not remove all infectious organisms. The only single effective water treatment in the backcountry is boiling the water, if you want to remove/kill everything and not boil you need a combination of chlorine/iodine tabs with filtration. Next best for the backcountry is those combination chemical treatments like Pristine drops.

[thoer]

A friend of ours had a giardia infection - nasty stuff. Cured me of feeling safe with otherwise pristine seeming streams, etc.

[Patandlinda]

Originally Posted by Bobbito

A trailer is more susceptible to microorganism water supply growth than your home because:

1. Water sitting in the tank is stagnant when the trailer is not in motion. Even drawing water from the tank isn't likely to prevent the bacteria growing on surfaces over time. If you had a holding tank as part of your home water system it would also be more susceptible to microorganism colonizing.



2. Bleach (hypochlorite) in chlorinated water from your home supply will be neutralized by heat or light, or evaporate into empty space in the trailer's tank if left standing.This allows the organisms to grow and colonize the system unless the water is circulating adequately and frequently.



3. I'm only guessing at this, but perhaps the speed at which water circulates through your house's water pipes is so much faster than in your trailer that it scrubs away biomasses that can form when water sits in them for long periods of time. Or is it that copper might inhibit the growth? I will see if I can find something on this.

Added later:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti...ties_of_copper


Bob K

Bob my point about the pool was even with circulation daily of water , this stuff not using chorine took a hold in the pool . At least I could get in pool and scrubb this bio film off the walls . That is not possible with our water holding tanks . I am going to be more vigilant about my trailer tank and fresh water hose . Pat

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by gharper

People in good health can withstand some exposure to waterborne micro-organisms (depending on the infection), the young, old and those with low immune systems are more likely unable to tolerate any type of infection. We are fortunate in Canada/US where we have public services that are mandated to ensure safe water supply, in a third world country people are much less fortunate and their morbidity and mortality is effected.

If you haven't got sick from drinking frequently from a mountain stream or using untreated and unmonitored water you are probably lucky or got an infection and didn't know it. A waterborne giardia infection, the most common waterborne illness, in a young person can impact their health and result in compromised growth and development. Giardiasis can go away on it's own but can also cause lasting effects if it is symptomatic and goes on untreated.

Filtration or use of chemical treatments alone do not remove all infectious organisms. The only single effective water treatment in the backcountry is boiling the water, if you want to remove/kill everything and not boil you need a combination of chlorine/iodine tabs with filtration. Next best for the backcountry is those combination chemical treatments like Pristine drops.

It is not just me, but most of the folks I trek with, that often drink straight from the stream. With most lakes, we tend to go out a ways, and take water from below the surface. Not sure if that helps or not, but we do have the illusion it is safer.

I carry an MSR Miniworks water filter, and use when we feel necessary.
MSR MiniWorks EX Water Filter - Mountain Equipment Co-op. Free Shipping Available
I filters out everything to 0.2 microns. Are there smaller bacterias typically in the water?

I always carry Pristine drops too, and have used them, but they don't remove any turbidity in the water, and leave a rotten smell. We do often let the water sit for a while, and often some of the larger particulates do settle out. Still, if I am suspicious of the water source and don't have my filter, I will use them.
Pristine ClO2 30ml Water Treatment - Mountain Equipment Co-op. Free Shipping Available

I must admit a part of me feels that we weaken our systems somewhat with all the drugs we are fed, and all the steps we go to to not toughen our systems. Don't get me wrong, I don't advocate we not take these steps, it is more that I wonder whether it does not weaken our immune systems, is all.

[Bobbito]

I think this forum is fabulous. I have learned so much from it and gotten very timely advice. It's great to get a cross section of opinions and examples on water sanitization, because like for many questions there isn't one exact answer that applies to all.

Listening to others who do less sanitizing and don't appear to be getting ill, got me thinking that I am maybe more cautious than I ought to be. But then I know my immunoglobulin levels are at the low end of the reference range and my white blood cells are below normal, so I will probably continue to err on the side of caution. Others, with better immunity would likely be fine drinking their trailer water as long as they didn't let microorganisms colonize their water system.
Here is a quote from the U.S.National Library of Medicine that gives an idea of the level of risk in our home and publicdrinking water systems. I think the risk is more in trailer systems for the reasons brought out in this thread.
"Opportunistic premise plumbing pathogens are waterborne microorganisms that are normal inhabitants of premise plumbing and cause infections in individuals with predisposing conditions, such as advanced age (>70 years), cancer, or immunodeficiency. "
Link:
Opportunistic Premise Plumbing Pathogens: Increasingly Important Pathogens in Drinking Water

Great examples of biofilms (Pat's swimming pool), algal slime (Scott's used Escape).

Also, food for thought on home plumbing, because I was thinking I had copper pipes, but no they are PEX. I'm guessing that the higher pressured, faster flow physically scrubs any biofilm out of the pipes after long vacations. Any examples of gelatinous masses being spit out of the tap on returning home?

We have space in our truck for carrying our drinking water separately, so I will continue to park a 5 gal water jug on the kitchen floor near the door. We got used to it very quickly.

Each to their own!

Bob K

[PGDriver]

This thread reminds me I always used to put the largest couple of glass marbles that would fit down the filler tube into the fresh water tank. I have had many RVs over the years and I had to replace a water tank in one that had marbles in it and was surprised to see how clean the bottom of the tank was except for a small margin around the outside edge where they couldn't touch when rolling around. They never bothered the drain or pick up tube on my other units so I think I will try them in my Escape trailer. I know this won't keep al the lines etc. clean but it sure stopped sediments from building up on the tank bottom.

Cheers
Doug

[Patandlinda]

Originally Posted by Bobbito

I think this forum is fabulous. I have learned so much from it and gotten very timely advice. It's great to get a cross section of opinions and examples on water sanitization, because like for many questions there isn't one exact answer that applies to all.

Listening to others who do less sanitizing and don't appear to be getting ill, got me thinking that I am maybe more cautious than I ought to be. But then I know my immunoglobulin levels are at the low end of the reference range and my white blood cells are below normal, so I will probably continue to err on the side of caution. Others, with better immunity would likely be fine drinking their trailer water as long as they didn't let microorganisms colonize their water system.
Here is a quote from the U.S.National Library of Medicine that gives an idea of the level of risk in our home and publicdrinking water systems. I think the risk is more in trailer systems for the reasons brought out in this thread.
"Opportunistic premise plumbing pathogens are waterborne microorganisms that are normal inhabitants of premise plumbing and cause infections in individuals with predisposing conditions, such as advanced age (>70 years), cancer, or immunodeficiency. "
Link:
Opportunistic Premise Plumbing Pathogens: Increasingly Important Pathogens in Drinking Water

Great examples of biofilms (Pat's swimming pool), algal slime (Scott's used Escape).

Also, food for thought on home plumbing, because I was thinking I had copper pipes, but no they are PEX. I'm guessing that the higher pressured, faster flow physically scrubs any biofilm out of the pipes after long vacations. Any examples of gelatinous masses being spit out of the tap on returning home?

We have space in our truck for carrying our drinking water separately, so I will continue to park a 5 gal water jug on the kitchen floor near the door. We got used to it very quickly.

Each to their own!

Bob K

Again thanks for the head's up . Didn't know why but never drink from the on board water . Bring separate bottled water and if I run out will buy some . I know that can be another discussion . But I am washing dishes with tank water and ,hands ,and showering so I still want to be aware and take some steps . I guess once you see this stuff it is a little hard to ignore . This is just making me want to be a cautious. Pat

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by Bobbito

I think this forum is fabulous. I have learned so much from it and gotten very timely advice.

Most definitely, Bob. This thread in itself has been a good learning tool for me, something I kinda knew about, but probably did not give enough care to. I will definitely give it more consideration into the future

[float5]

Originally Posted by gharper

People in good health can withstand some exposure to waterborne micro-organisms (depending on the infection), the young, old and those with low immune systems are more likely unable to tolerate any type of infection. We are fortunate in Canada/US where we have public services that are mandated to ensure safe water supply, in a third world country people are much less fortunate and their morbidity and mortality is effected.

If you haven't got sick from drinking frequently from a mountain stream or using untreated and unmonitored water you are probably lucky or got an infection and didn't know it. A waterborne giardia infection, the most common waterborne illness, in a young person can impact their health and result in compromised growth and development. Giardiasis can go away on it's own but can also cause lasting effects if it is symptomatic and goes on untreated.

Filtration or use of chemical treatments alone do not remove all infectious organisms. The only single effective water treatment in the backcountry is boiling the water, if you want to remove/kill everything and not boil you need a combination of chlorine/iodine tabs with filtration. Next best for the backcountry is those combination chemical treatments like Pristine drops.

Thank you for this information. Very good to know for those going to far boondocking places.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Bobbito

A trailer is more susceptible to microorganism water supply growth than your home because:

1. Water sitting in the tank is stagnant when the trailer is not in motion. Even drawing water from the tank isn't likely to prevent the bacteria growing on surfaces over time. If you had a holding tank as part of your home water system it would also be more susceptible to microorganism colonizing.

...

Generally true, but many homes (thousands in the rural areas surrounding Edmonton, for instance) get their water trucked in and held in a cistern (holding tank, generally underground), instead of using wells. The water comes from the municipal supply (at truck-loading stations). Deliveries would typically be weeks apart. I wonder if they do anything special to handle this potential problem, and whether it would be applicable to an RV.

[Thane]

My trailer doesn't have the spray on insulation so the white fresh water tank is exposed to light. I think that is why I have a problem with growth in the fresh water tank.

This year I added some bleach and after a bit of driving I drained the fresh water tank by removing the drain fitting and draining it further as I drove home. Next I will take off the water filler cap and use a shop vac at the drain fitting to pull fresh air through the tank to dry it out. That should help keep the tank free.

I like the marble idea.

[cpaharley2008]

Yes, gives credence to the saying "losing one's marbles"....

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Thane

My trailer doesn't have the spray on insulation so the white fresh water tank is exposed to light.
...

... Next I will take off the water filler cap and use a shop vac at the drain fitting to pull fresh air through the tank to dry it out.

That makes sense to me, and will probably work better for drying than just pushing air in (and out of the vent). To make this even more effective, an exposed tank like this could have a larger clean-out fitting added - just like a threaded drain fitting on a waste tank, as low as it can go in the side (or even the bottom) of the tank. Just a thought

[sclifrickson]

Originally Posted by PGDriver

This thread reminds me I always used to put the largest couple of glass marbles that would fit down the filler tube into the fresh water tank. I have had many RVs over the years and I had to replace a water tank in one that had marbles in it and was surprised to see how clean the bottom of the tank was except for a small margin around the outside edge where they couldn't touch when rolling around. They never bothered the drain or pick up tube on my other units so I think I will try them in my Escape trailer. I know this won't keep al the lines etc. clean but it sure stopped sediments from building up on the tank bottom.

Cheers
Doug

Has anyone tried this on an Escape yet?

[cpaharley2008]

You mean lost their marbles?? ....

[sclifrickson]

Exactly.

[thoer]

Originally Posted by Bobbito

So I discussed this thread with a good friend of mine, a former head technologist of the hospital’s microbiology lab, and thought I would summarize my thoughts in light of this. Her department cultured the many water samples I submitted on a weekly basis for our purified water systems, and also from the renal unit water system. There is too much for a post, so if you care to read more open this PDF file. Dealing with microorganism growth and sanitization is similar for both water purification systems and RV water systems, even if the quality targets are different.

Bob K

Bob, I had saved your excellently thought out document, but forgot to thank you for your work on this.

[steve dunham]

My dog drinks out of the toilet , lake and puddles and still he survives. Maybe dogs are the superior being. The best coffee I ever drank was made from water obtained fresh from a Canadian lake .

[cpaharley2008]

and the best water was out of a hose on a hot day when you were a kid