WINTERIZING: updated Oct. 29, 2013

[rbryan4]

My method in winter:

Go camping.

[MyronL]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

Which is why I went back to anti-freeze. When you see pink coming out of the tap you know you're good to go.

Unless you're in Massachusetts.

[escape artist]

Originally Posted by rbryan4

My method in winter:

Go camping.

Hi: rbryan4... Our best winterizing hint is "Head South". 8) Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie

[thoer]

Originally Posted by padlin

Just to be different, I use the HW bypass, drain the HW tank, use the winterizing connection and run antifreeze in via the pump, after getting the pink at all the spigots and the toilet I blow it out. Takes about a gallon, it all ends up in the traps and beyond. Had the shower fixture freeze and crack one year when I left the antifreeze in. From what I've heard, in cold weather the antifreeze will turn to slush, must have been enough to crack the plastic shower control.

Bob I do about the same thing, except I just burp the pump a couple times at the end to empty it and then use the low point drain and all the taps open to drain our most of the remaining antifreeze rather than blowing it out again. Your way may be my next.

Finding a new full bottle of antifreeze frozen into thick slush last year made me wary of leaving it in. And now with so much of it being ethanol, I try to drain it out of they grey and black lines so that the ethanol isn't sitting against the valves all winter.

[J Mac]

Okay, let me get this straight:

RV Antifreeze makers are now using ethanol in their products and that could be harmful to rubber seals and or valves.
RV Antifreeze now freezes into a thick slush in some instances.

[thoer]

Originally Posted by J Mac

Okay, let me get this straight:

RV Antifreeze makers are now using ethanol in their products and that could be harmful to rubber seals and or valves.
RV Antifreeze now freezes into a thick slush in some instances.

As far as I can tell you got it straight. Nice product, eh? Good argument for the blow out method. Last year I didn't know about the ethanol yet. I had a couple of different brands, as I thought it was all the same and picked up whatever was on sale. Only one bottle that was thick slush, I wish that I had read ingredients to see what was different.

[J Mac]

is this slush caused by the introduction of ethanol?

[thoer]

Originally Posted by J Mac

is this slush caused by the introduction of ethanol?

Had I been smart enough to look carefully at which bottles turned to slush and which didn't we would have some info on that. I was just shocked when I saw it, and starting reading that it has always done that? Supposedly it can freeze, but not expand like water does.

[MyronL]

Frozen toilet valves seem to be the most worrysome trouble spot because they are expensive to replace and hard to get to. This hedge has been posted before: install toilet feed shut off.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by J Mac

Okay, let me get this straight:

RV Antifreeze makers are now using ethanol in their products and that could be harmful to rubber seals and or valves.

RV antifreeze has long been a mix of water with either ethanol or propylene glycol or both, plus some minor additives, so this use of ethanol is not new. Perhaps ethanol content has been rising or ethanol-based products are becoming more common - I don't know.

Originally Posted by J Mac

RV Antifreeze now freezes into a thick slush in some instances.

RV antifreeze is not as "strong" a solution as automotive coolant, and is further diluted by any remaining water in the system being protected. This is why the RV/plumbing antifreeze manufacturers refer to "burst protection" rather than "freeze protection": it is okay for plumbing protection that it gets slushy, as long as it doesn't reach the point of expanding and thus bursting plumbing. So, it has always become slush at the bottom of its rated temperature range.

For comparison, as the temperature drops water gets more dense (contracts) until about 4 degrees Celcius (40 degrees F), but then it expands as it further cools (which is unusual for a liquid) and expands in a big step as it freezes (again unusual)... so freezing water bursts containers, including plumbing.

[gharper]

Antifreeze used to contain propylene glycol or methanol, both toxic in small amounts. Ethanol is now used since it also causes freezing point depression. At 20% ethanol the solution will freeze at minus 9 deg C, 40% at minus 23 deg C, 60% ethanol at minus 37 deg C.

[FMLNM]

Originally Posted by MyronL

Frozen toilet valves seem to be the most worrysome trouble spot because they are expensive to replace and hard to get to. This hedge has been posted before: install toilet feed shut off.

But make sure the ttoilet
valve is good and dry/drained or you just lock the water in and crack the valve when it freezes!!

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by gharper

Antifreeze used to contain propylene glycol or methanol, both toxic in small amounts. Ethanol is now used ...

... as well as propylene glycol (which is still commonly used). Propylene glycol is not good to drink, but is not toxic is moderate quantities. Ethylene glycol (the stuff normally used in automotive engine coolant) is toxic.

I'm surprised that plumbing antifreeze would have ever contained methanol, but perhaps methanol-containing products were intended only for drain pipes (not potable water supply systems). Current products do tend to be described as "non-toxic", suggesting that in the past some may have been toxic.

[LeonW]

I did all my winterizing this morning. Always a little nerve-wracking for me since I am afraid I will forget a step, and won't know about it until next spring. I like the idea of running anti-freeze through the lines and then blowing it out. Makes me wish I had gotten the winterizing "T" which I decided to forgo since I was successful just blowing the water out last winter. I figure that doing my own winterizing two falls has now paid for the cost of the small air compressor I bought last fall.

But I have a couple of questions.

1) last year, for some reason I don't remember, I poured a bit of antifreeze into the toilet bowl, and just let it sit there for the winter. But I don't see the point of doing that if there isn't any water in the toilet bowl. Can anyone think why one would put anti freeze in the toilet bowl? I think I just was overly conscientious last year, but would like to make sure.

2) Although I have blown out the water lines, and poured antifreeze into the sinks and the shower drain, I haven't emptied the gray and black tank yet. I will empty those tanks tomorrow when I take the trailer to storage. As a result, any antifreeze in the tanks will be emptied as well. I think that is OK, and maybe even better than OK, since it will allieveate Eric's concern about the various harmful ingredients in the antifreeze corroding the rubber seals on the tanks.

by the way, I got some "peak" RV -50 antifreeze at Menards today. $2.99 a gallon with a coupon for a $1.00 per gallon rebate, so net price $1.99 per gallon. The down side is the ingredient list is vague and says only that it uses one or more of the following "Ethyl alcohol, or glycerine, or polypropylene glycol" So it is hard to know exactly what I am putting in the traps.

Thanks,

Leon

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

... as well as propylene glycol (which is still commonly used).

Used - unfortunately - in colonoscopy prep...
"LABEL: GOLYTELY - polyethylene glycol 3350, ..."

Now, who really wanted to know that little tidbit?

--
Alan

[padlin]

Originally Posted by LeonW

1) last year, for some reason I don't remember, I poured a bit of antifreeze into the toilet bowl, and just let it sit there for the winter. But I don't see the point of doing that if there isn't any water in the toilet bowl. Can anyone think why one would put anti freeze in the toilet bowl?

2) Although I have blown out the water lines, and poured antifreeze into the sinks and the shower drain, I haven't emptied the gray and black tank yet. I will empty those tanks tomorrow when I take the trailer to storage. As a result, any antifreeze in the tanks will be emptied as well. I think that is OK.

The only thing I get a bit concerned with on the toilet, taking for granted all the water is out, is the seal. It can stick come spring if left dry, a little cooking oil or Vaseline keeps it from happening.

I see no problem with leaving nothing in the tanks, I know some leave a bit of antifreeze in them just to guard the dump valves, your choice.

[gbaglo]

Every version of winterizing that I have read says to pour quite a lot of antifreeze in the P-traps, which would then end up in the tanks and trap.
I'd leave it there to protect the valves, as suggested above. It would take forever to ensure every last drop of effluent was out of the tanks if all you did was drain them.

[gharper]

polyethylene glycol the laxative is not the same as propylene glycol. MSDS sheets for propylene glycol indicates a moderate risk health hazard and small amounts have been shown to cause severe illness: "Propylene glycol toxicity: a severe iatrogenic illness in ICU patients receiving IV benzodiazepines. Wilson KC, Reardon C, Theodore AC, Farber H, Chest. 2005;128(3):1674". Just think the RV antifreeze I find only has ethanol in it and I would search it out if the container indicated otherwise.

[LeonW]

But, if you only put the anti-freeze in the drains and the tanks, it shouldn't affect any of the water that you use for drinking/cooking/bathing, right? So if it is slightly toxic (even though the label says it "GRAS (Generally Regarded as Safe)", it shouldn't hurt anything. Or am I missing something?

[thoer]

Interesting thing about the internet - lots of conflicting information.

Ethylene Glycol and Propylene Glycol Toxicity: What is Propylene Glycol | ATSDR - Environmental Medicine & Environmental Health Education - CSEM