2017 Builds - Conversation and Information

[Patandlinda]

Originally Posted by rbryan4

Pat, GVWR is the maximum weight of the trailer with all cargo. Your 19 can weigh (with trailer plus all contents) up to 4008 lbs. The shipping weight is the same as dry weight - 2525lbs. The dry weight is your starting point. So, 2525 lbs plus all options will give you your actual dry weight. The difference between your actual dry weight and your GVWR is your cargo capacity. Yes, the weight of the water in your tanks is part of the cargo. Your axle rating has nothing to do with calculating these numbers, although it is one part of the equation the factory uses to determine GVWR. It just means each axle can support up to 2500 lbs.

Thanks Robert . I forgot I did add 3 reenforced walls too to build too. So they list my CC at 336 kg which comes to 740 lb.So I need to watch that figure for everything I add . I think we are ok though coming from a camper already elimated stuff . We put stuff in bed of truck not trailer anyway ice chest , chairs , rugs , etc . Pat

[float5]

Originally Posted by Patandlinda

Took a look at our 2013 19 ft trailer . We have AC, front box, dual batteries , microwave , foam , extra insulation and Windows , oven . Sticker says GVWR 1818 kg =4008 lb . 1145 kg shipping weight =2525 lb . 336kg CC =740 lb . Waste tanks 204 kg =450 lb . Water heater 27 kg =60 lb . Fresh water at 90kg = 199 lb . Our axles are 2500lb each .At this time not worried with Ford which can tow 8600 lb . We have a class 3 hitch at 5000lb. I am guessing the figures on tanks are filled ? My difference in weight carrying capacity is my options is subtracting from GVWR ? I want to learn too even though I think I have plenty of wiggle room . Pat

Pat, no, no worries with 8600 tow capacity!
I am supposing that anyone would empty the fresh to have the others full, or half empty the fresh to have the others half full, but someone might just fill the fresh in some odd case and not empty the tanks.

On the GCWR, just to give an example for others:

If the towing capacity for the vehicle is 5000
And total weight allowed for the loaded vehicle is 6300
Then, if the manufacturer says that the GCWR is 11,300, FINE. No problem.

If the GCWR given is less than what the other two add up to, then you may have to subtract some of the weight you put in the vehicle from your towing capacity. That is often the case with passenger vehicles so that the towing capacity is less than what they have told you. Eric is giving his situation above.

[rbryan4]

Originally Posted by thoer

Doesn't the shipping weight posted on the trailer include the specific options on that trailer?

I asked Tammy how to determine the exact weight of our 17B and she said to use the sheet of paper glued in the cabinet. To take the GVWR and subtract the CC (cargo carrying capacity) and that is the dry weight of our trailer with all options.

So for ours 1590kg - 441kg = 1149 kg or about 2533# which seems to agree with weighing we have done

Makes sense to me Eric, but I've seen too many placards with the exact same number, even though the trailers had quite a variance in options. So, I err on the side of caution.

If you want accuracy, to me there's no substitute for getting the trailer weighed on a certified scale - both empty and loaded.

[Bear101]

Originally Posted by Rossue

Hi Jeff(freespirit)- I knew you meant discrepancy and it is not hard to see why some are confused(then disappointed) when looking at ETI's website and see the 19 listed at 2600 lbs. dry weight. To get to 3740# with a few options probably wouldn't occur to many and points out the need for an updating to their website pointing out the new dry weight for the Gen2 model.

Yes, they do weigh the trailers when completed.

I agree Rossue other companies do this for example, following an inquiry to Lance, we received a quote as well as an itemized options list with the price and weight of each option. Something closer to this level of communication would certain reduce the chance of confusion and disappointment. The reality is, on reading the ETI weight estimate we reconsidered several other trailers but still came to the conclusion that an Escape 19 is the right trailer for us.

We also concluded that we like the new insulated windows including bath and kitchen, added spray foam insulation, new medicine cabinet, new awning, 6 cu ft fridge, exterior shower, dual 6 volt batteries,surge protector, 2 captains reading lamps, LED awning light strip, air conditioner, 7500 k max fan, extra door at the end of the bench, extra drawer under the wardrobe, storage box, and reinforced walls.

So we will have to get a tow vehicle with a tow rating of more than 5000lbs. Just would have made planning a bit more realistic if more information on weights was available. Perhaps this will come as ETI gains more experience with the Gen 2s.

Now to research diesel and body on frame SUVs, that should be fun

[cpaharley2008]

Perhaps we should all read this sticky in trying to understand what all is being mentioned here
http://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f1...erms-1921.html

[Brian B-P]

The definition in the linked sticky topic of "dry weight" assumes base equipment. That's not literally the meaning of "dry weight" (which simply means without fluids), but the dry weights published on the Escape website are indeed for

• dry condition (no fluids in the tanks),
• base/standard equipment (no options or accessories), and
• empty (none of your stuff)

I suggest being explicit: use dry or wet, base or as-equipped, and empty or loaded with cargo - that's three bits of information to make any weight value meaningful.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by skyfree

Got it from Escape today for the 17B: Dry 2400, which would make Wet (20+6 gallons) 2660 lbs. This is an increase of 230 lbs. over the classic.

New GVWR is 4,000 lbs though
...
We typically travel pretty light so I will be rolling with probably right around 3,400 lbs which is less than 1/2 the towing capacity of our Touareg TDI.

Is the Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR) still 3500 pounds? If so, then to load the trailer up to a gross weight of 4000 pounds, at least 500 pounds of that must be carried by the hitch (tongue weight). That's 12.5%, which is reasonable, but this would a rare case of lower tongue weight causing an overloading problem - of the trailer's axle/suspension.

This not a concern with a total weight of 3400 pounds, but if the axle rating hasn't been raised it will be a factor to consider for anyone pushing close to the new GVWR of the 17B.

[rbryan4]

That's a very good point Brian. If the GVWR went up, it stands to reason that the axle rating should have gone up as well. Hmmm.

[rotateclockwise]

So, I’m puzzled.

For simplicity, I’m going to use the 19 Gen 1 specs, which state the following (weight without options).

Dry Hitch Weight – 256 lbs
Dry Axle Weight – 2354 lbs
Total Dry Weight – 2610 lbs

Where I’m confused is that I’ve heard the hitch weight (256) is applied to the vehicles payload weight. If the payload max were 1000 lbs, then one would have 744 lbs left for people, stuff, etc. in the vehicle (1000 – 256). If this were true, would only the dry axle weight be applied to the vehicles towing capacity (2354 and not 2610)?

[Brian B-P]

The limit with a value of 9828 pounds is Gross Combined Weight Rating or GCWR, but other than that small notational tweak I agree with Eric - this is an excellent explanation of the issue which many people ignore when considering ratings and trailer weight:

Originally Posted by thoer

The number that is easy to overlook (and sometimes hard to find) is the GCVW gross combined vehicle weight, or the grand total of vehicle and trailer both fully loaded. For example our 2016 Highlander has a GCVW of 9828#. The curb weight of the Highlander is 4464#, leaving 5364# capacity for trailer, us, everything loaded into the Highlander and trailer, and all cargo, fresh water and waste tanks. So, while the Highlander is rated at 5000# towing, if you towed a trailer at that weight, the occupants plus anything in the Highlander could not be more than 364#. That would leave this overweight guy plus Mary with about a change of clothes.

This varies greatly by vehicle, which is why you need to dig for the relevant data, as Eric has. Some think I was crazy for discussing towing a 19' with our Sienna - which has a 3500 pound max trailer weight rating - but in my case a 3500 pound trailer still leaves over a thousand pounds for people and cargo. Of course the weight increase kills the idea of towing a new style 19' with the Sienna.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by rotateclockwise

So, I’m puzzled.

For simplicity, I’m going to use the 19 Gen 1 specs, which state the following (weight without options).

Dry Hitch Weight – 256 lbs
Dry Axle Weight – 2354 lbs
Total Dry Weight – 2610 lbs

Where I’m confused is that I’ve heard the hitch weight (256) is applied to the vehicles payload weight. If the payload max were 1000 lbs, then one would have 744 lbs left for people, stuff, etc. in the vehicle (1000 – 256).

Yes, that is correct. The vehicle supports the hitch weight, so that hitch weight must be included.

You understand, of course, that actual hitch weight will be substantially higher, but we're using the dry, empty, and base equipment numbers for this example.

Originally Posted by rotateclockwise

If this were true, would only the dry axle weight be applied to the vehicles towing capacity (2354 and not 2610)?

No. The vehicle must pull, control, and stop the entire weight of the trailer, so the trailer weight limit applied to the total weight of the trailer (what's carried on the axle, plus what's carried on the hitch). There are many limitations on the capabilities of a vehicle, and hitch weight limits, payload, and trailer weight are all related to different limitations.

[Patandlinda]

Originally Posted by float5

Pat, no, no worries with 8600 tow capacity!
I am supposing that anyone would empty the fresh to have the others full, or half empty the fresh to have the others half full, but someone might just fill the fresh in some odd case and not empty the tanks.

On the GCWR, just to give an example for others:

If the towing capacity for the vehicle is 5000
And total weight allowed for the loaded vehicle is 6300
Then, if the manufacturer says that the GCWR is 11,300, FINE. No problem.

If the GCWR given is less than what the other two add up to, then you may have to subtract some of the weight you put in the vehicle from your towing capacity. That is often the case with passenger vehicles so that the towing capacity is less than what they have told you. Eric is giving his situation above.

I was thinking so Cathy but I really should just for information get trailer weighed as Robert mentioned . What was funny when first looking at these trailers , thought we would be embaressed with this truck now I am glad to have it . Pat

[rotateclockwise]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

No. The vehicle must pull, control, and stop the entire weight of the trailer, so the trailer weight limit applied to the total weight of the trailer (what's carried on the axle, plus what's carried on the hitch). There are many limitations on the capabilities of a vehicle, and hitch weight limits, payload, and trailer weight are all related to different limitations.

Ok. That makes sense. In the case of GCWR, would you add the weight of the vehicle which includes the hitch weight to the trailer axle weight? If you add the vehicle weight to the trailers total weight instead, you are double counting the hitch weight, or is they way it works?

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Patandlinda

Sticker says GVWR 1818 kg =4008 lb . 1145 kg shipping weight =2525 lb . 336kg CC =740 lb . Waste tanks 204 kg =450 lb . Water heater 27 kg =60 lb . Fresh water at 90kg = 199 lb .
...
I am guessing the figures on tanks are filled ? My difference in weight carrying capacity is my options is subtracting from GVWR ?

"Dry" means without fluids, not without options. In this case, Escape has calculated the cargo carrying capacity starting from a dry weight of 1145 kg (2525 lb), so it is for your trailer as it is equipped: "shipping weight" means what it weighed when they shipped it out of the factory... with everything installed (so as-equipped, not base) and with nothing in the tanks (so dry).
Weight carrying capacity is what's left after subtracting the weight of the trailer (with your options and with fluids) from what the trailer is allowed to weigh:

GVWR (1818 kg or 4008 lb)
- shipping weight (1145 kg or 2525 lb)
- weight of water which would be in the freshwater tank if you filled it (90 kg or 199 lb)
- weight of water in water heater (27 kg or 60 lb)
- weight of wastewater if tanks full (204 kg or 450 lb)
= 352 kg or 774 lb... left for your stuff in the trailer
I don't know how the placard came out slightly off of this, but that's the calculation; yes, it is based on the tanks being full. This seems like enough to me.

The strange thing is that they allowed for full fresh and waste tanks. That's abnormal, because it doesn't correspond to how RVs are used. Normal practice is to assume a full freshwater tank, and empty waste tanks. As you camp you use water so it moves to the waste tanks, but it doesn't increase in amount, so you will typically never carry more water weight than fits in the freshwater tank. Following that practice (allowing for full freshwater and water heater but empty waste tanks) would result in a generous cargo carrying capacity of 556 kg or 1223 lb.

If you have full waste tanks and fill up with freshwater somewhere that doesn't have a dump site, you could manage to fill all tanks at the same time... so it you do this, allow for the weight.

[float5]

Originally Posted by Patandlinda

What was funny when first looking at these trailers , thought we would be embaressed with this truck now I am glad to have it . Pat

Do you mean that the truck is old? Well, we bought a tow vehicle for the 19' in 2011 and with less than five years on it, I just had the 90K service. Changed the transmission fluid and coolant and a few other things. Even our "new" TV is old now.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by rotateclockwise

Ok. That makes sense. In the case of GCWR, would you add the weight of the vehicle which includes the hitch weight to the trailer axle weight? If you add the vehicle weight to the trailers total weight instead, you are double counting the hitch weight, or is they way it works?

Just count it once.
Whether you consider the tongue weight as part of the trailer, or part of what the tow vehicle is carrying, there is only one tongue weight, so don't count it twice. If you drive the whole rig onto one scale, and weigh the whole thing (which is what you're trying to calculate) there would not be two copies of the tongue weight.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Patandlinda

What was funny when first looking at these trailers , thought we would be embaressed with this truck now I am glad to have it . Pat

Originally Posted by float5

Do you mean that the truck is old?

I assume that Pat meant that the truck would seem embarrassingly oversized for the purpose of towing an Escape. It's bigger than it needs to be, but I don't think it's unreasonable, and I think that's what Pat has realized.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by float5

On the GCWR, just to give an example for others:

If the towing capacity for the vehicle is 5000
And total weight allowed for the loaded vehicle is 6300
Then, if the manufacturer says that the GCWR is 11,300, FINE. No problem.

If the GCWR given is less than what the other two add up to, then you may have to subtract some of the weight you put in the vehicle from your towing capacity. That is often the case with passenger vehicles so that the towing capacity is less than what they have told you.

Right, but this is not a problem specific to passenger vehicles - in fact, it is mostly a problem with pickup trucks. Their towing rating is almost always calculated as GCWR minus the curb weight and an allowance for just a driver. None ever have GCWR = GVWR + GTWR (Gross Trailer Weight Rating); I've only seen that for cars with very low trailer ratings which are not expected to be used frequently for towing.

Passenger or multipurpose vehicles (such as Eric's Highlander or my Sienna) have lower trailer weight rating than their GCWR might suggest, so they still have some payload left when towing the maximum trailer. In contrast, many pickup owners would be over their GCWR when towing their maximum rated trailer even with no passenger, zero cargo and a stark naked driver! That's why those really high trailer weight ratings on pickups don't correspond to realistic travel trailer towing capability.

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by rbryan4

If you want accuracy, to me there's no substitute for getting the trailer weighed on a certified scale - both empty and loaded.

Not only is this a good idea, but the same goes with your tow vehicle too, to determine how much cargo capacity you actually have, as well as where you stand with your GWVR too.

[float5]

I went into a state scale to see the total weight and then down to a commercial place when I thought the first weight was high. The difference they told me was 220 lbs., however, the second one then changed theirs, as the weight on paper was 60 lbs. less an what they had said. Did not even bother with the other weights at the time, as would have to remove WDH and all. But just to point out that the same weight may be given as different at different places.