We're Dan and Rita and New to the Forum

[Bill and Earline]

Dan,
I'm not sure I'm buying the KOA "expert's" analysis.
He says as you use up your tow vehicle's payload, you must also decrease the tow vehicle's towing capacity.

In your case, we assume your GVWR of your tow vehicle is 6,000 lbs, your tow capacity is 5,000.

If you load your tow vehicle with people, equipment and tongue weight of say 1500 lbs., you then are near your tow vehicle's GVWR, which is ok, but according to the expert, you have then lowered your tow capacity to 3500. I'm not sure about that.

We have assumed your GCWR is 11,000. At 6,000 for your tow vehicle, it seems, you might still be able to tow 5,000 instead of 3500.

By the way, Escape shows GVWR of the 19 at 5,000 and the 21 also at 5,000. Those numbers mean to me, that if weighed separately, neither trailer should weigh over 5,000 pounds, and I've never heard of that occurring for either one. Ours is usually 4400 to 4500 as we travel with some, but not full water.

Bottom line is, I wouldn't rule out a 21, yet. Others will, no doubt, pipe in.

[rbryan4]

Originally Posted by HomeCamp

Thanks, Good information, some of which I knew.
So if I understand all of this right.
My Highlander has a GCWR of 11,000 lbs with a GVWR of 6,000 lbs. So I could pull the Escape 19 of 4,000 lbs GVWR for the total of 11,000 lbs GCWR?

Anything with an "R" in it is a Rating - not the actual weight. Rating simply means you can go up to that amount. So, a 19 has a GVWR (the max the trailer and all contents can weigh) of 5000 lbs. A 21 also has a GVWR of 5000 lbs.

Originally Posted by HomeCamp

And as far as my Highlander's Max Cargo Weight.
I minus 4,464 lbs for Highlander's Curb Weight from the GVWR of 6,000 lbs for 1,536 lbs of Highlander's Max Payload? (CCC - Cargo Carrying Capacity)

And with my 1,536 of max payload.
If I minus 400 lbs for Passenger Weight.
And 400-600 lbs of hitch weight (At 10-15% of trailer's 4,000 GVWR's, Model 19.
And 400 lbs. of Highlander additional Cargo Weight.
That leaves me with 336-536 lbs of extra Highlander cargo and still stay under the total GCWR of 11,000 lbs.?

It leaves you with those 336 to 536 lbs before exceeding the GVWR - not the combined weight, just the weight of your tow. Payload capacity includes the weight of all passengers, cargo, and anything that loads the tow - in this case, the hitch weight as well. Essentially, how much weight can be put on the tow vehicle? That's payload capacity. A 19 would have less impact on your payload than a 21, because the weight on the hitch would be less. Not much less however. I've seen differences of as little as 50 lbs. Remember that the published dry hitch weights on the website do not include options that most people get - including the storage box and the dual 6V batteries on the tongue of the 19. That can account for alot of weight. For example, my 19 with the storage box and the dual 6V batteries and stuff inside it comes in at 400 lbs tongue weight.

Originally Posted by HomeCamp

If all of this is correct, a model 21 would be too heavy for my Highlander because it an additional 1,000 lbs GVWR?

You aren't adding an additional 1000 lbs to GVWR. GVWR is what it is. The GVWR of both the 19 and the 21 are the same, according to Escape's website. Neither trailer should ever weigh more than 5000 lbs loaded. Really hard to do in a 19 anyway, but more possible with a 21.

Let's use some theoretical examples:

A 19 weighing 3900 lbs loaded for bear. Tongue weight of 400 lbs. Your tow vehicle weighing 4500 lbs, two passengers and some cargo. Total tow vehicle weight at lets say 5800 lbs. Combine the weight of the trailer and the tow and you get 9700 lbs. You're under the max tongue weight, under the payload capacity, under the GVWR for both vehicles, and under the 11K lb GCWR Toyota claims. Works.

A 21 weighing 4250 lbs loaded for bear. Tongue weight of 450 lbs. Your same tow vehicle weighing 4500 lbs, two passengers and some cargo. Total tow vehicle weight (with a little less cargo) again at 5800 lbs. Combine the weight of the trailer and the tow vehicle and you get 10,050 lbs. You're still under the max tongue weight, under the payload capacity, under the GVWR for both vehicles, and under the 11K lb GCWR Toyota claims. Still works. What you'd have to be careful with here is the tongue weight of the 21, as well as the weight of your cargo in the tow - because you have less room to play with than in a 19. Close, but still doable.

None of this speaks to your towing experience, or whether you'll enjoy towing with this combination - only that the numbers add up.

[Loren & Cathy]

Just buy a big whomping pickup and to heck with all this math. When we got back from Rice, Texas and all primed to buy a Casita, I said I was going to buy a truck where I only used a third of my towing capacity. I then had enough to move up to the 21.

I’m the kind of guy who always overbuilt everything and was in big trouble when I screwed up and had to take it apart. Loren

[HomeCamp]

Originally Posted by Loren & Cathy

Just buy a big whomping pickup and to heck with all this math. When we got back from Rice, Texas and all primed to buy a Casita, I said I was going to buy a truck where I only used a third of my towing capacity. I then had enough to move up to the 21.

I’m the kind of guy who always overbuilt everything and was in big trouble when I screwed up and had to take it apart. Loren

Good Advice Loren.
If I had just kept my 2007 Chevy 2500HD Duramax, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I guess it's human nature not to be satisfied with what we are blessed to have.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Intersting video by Mark's RV where payload is subtracted from towing capacity, thus if you have tongue weight, passengers, cargo totaling 1,000# and a vehicle rated to tow 5,000#, then your towing capacity is reduced to 4,000# by your payload. Thus a Highlander is rated at 5,000 empty....https://koa.com/blog/5-towing-mistakes-rv-owners-make/

That only makes sense if the manufacturer has calculated the trailer weight rating based on hitting the GCWR with no passengers and cargo. That's a common practice, especially with pickup trucks (and likely the Suburban or Yukon XL shown in the article's lead photo), but is not the case for the Highlander (according to e-mail response mentioned by Robert). Many vehicles have a trailer weight limited by some factor other than GCWR, and so this simplistic approach from Mark's RV is not correct.

For a specific example, my 2004 Toyota Sienna's owners manual does explicitly list the GCWR. Based only on GCWR and curb weight, the Sienna could tow about 4,500 pounds; however, it is rated for only 3,500 pounds. The lower trailer weight rating appears to be selected to keep the hitch weight (in weight-carrying mode) to no more than 350 pounds (using Toyota's usual 10% tongue weight assumption). The result is that the van can tow the max allowed trailer while still carrying half a ton of passengers and cargo... which we have done.

In the case of the Highlander, it seems likely that Toyota chose the 5,000 pound trailer weight limit based on a desire to limit the hitch weight to 500 pounds, not due to a GCWR concern. That's assuming, of course, that the GCWR information from Toyota and passed on by Robert is correct.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Bobbito

Yikes! I didn’t realize that you subtract the TV load off of the towing limit weight. I’m still fine with our combo, but I thought I understood the numbers. Always learning.
Bob K

Perhaps you did already understand them, Bob, since this item from the video is not correct.

Sometimes information from poor sources leads to confusion, instead of learning.

[Iowa Dave]

Good explanation Robert Bryan. And exactly what I’ve been saying all along. On the 2018 Highlander I had Toyota instal the hitch, brake controller 7 pin etc when I bought it. My numbers work with the sticker on the door frame and when they finished the install, they even added a little yellow sticker that states “modifications to this vehichle have reduced the load capacity by 8 kg or 17lbs. Tongue weight is 500 lbs, loaded Escape weight ( First generation)
4250. Towing experience 55 years.
Iowa

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Bill and Earline

By the way, Escape shows GVWR of the 19 at 5,000 and the 21 also at 5,000. Those numbers mean to me, that if weighed separately, neither trailer should weigh over 5,000 pounds, and I've never heard of that occurring for either one. Ours is usually 4400 to 4500 as we travel with some, but not full water.

I think that this is a good illustration that Escape GVWR values are suitable for the trailers and the way they are normally used, so that adding options plus water plus propane plus cargo normally leaves a reasonable margin to the GVWR.

A sampling of a few owners' Escape 21' weights in the spreadsheet maintained by Jon show a range of (presumably) loaded-for-travel actual weights from 3660 to 4700 pounds, with all of the weights under 4380 pounds belonging to the somewhat lighter first-generation design. At least one of these owners is already only 300 pounds from the GVWR, so it seems likely that there's an overloaded Escape 21' running around somewhere out there right now, but most should be decently under 5,000 pounds.

The base/dry/empty weight of a 5.0TA is 675 pounds more than that of the 21', and the 5.0TA has a GVWR 500 pounds more than that of the 21', so the 5.0TA has only 175 pounds less available capacity (for options, water, propane, and cargo). The 21' and 5.0TA have the same options available. So the 5.0TA doesn't typically get loaded all the way up to GVWR, but one senior member of the forum was recently surprised to find that his trailer was 220 pounds overweight. It can happen, with any model, so it is worth thinking about and checking on a scale.

[rbryan4]

Originally Posted by Loren & Cathy

Just buy a big whomping pickup and to heck with all this math.

I don't know if my F150 qualifies as "big whomping" or not Loren, but I did buy a truck. Even with that though, the owner should still be aware of the numbers. Payload capacity for example on many "half ton" trucks leaves alot to be desired, and is easy to exceed.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by rbryan4

I don't know if my F150 qualifies as "big whomping" or not Loren, but I did buy a truck.

Nope. That there is a girly truck. Real men drive SuperDuty.

Originally Posted by rbryan4

Even with that though, the owner should still be aware of the numbers. Payload capacity for example on many "half ton" trucks leaves alot to be desired, and is easy to exceed.

Absolutely
Even drivers of "3/4 ton" pickups often overload them with travel trailers - although of course typically larger trailers than those from Escape - because they don't think they need to check the numbers, or think they know better than the truck manufacturer.

[Iowa Dave]

I just figured out that the trailer of choice for the late Lucille Ball would be an Escape 19. Since the starting weight of the 19 is considerably less than the 21, and the allowable gross weight for both is 5000 lbs, Lucille’s penchant for hauling pretty rocks would be enhanced by the slightly smaller 19. Keep them over the tandems Ricky and easy on the curvy roads. Stay with the Lincoln in the Sierra Madres.
Iowa Dave

[dfandrews]

Originally Posted by Iowa Dave

I just figured out that the trailer of choice for the late Lucille Ball would be an Escape 19. Since the starting weight of the 19 is considerably less than the 21, and the allowable gross weight for both is 5000 lbs, Lucille’s penchant for hauling pretty rocks would be enhanced by the slightly smaller 19. Keep them over the tandems Ricky and easy on the curvy roads. Stay with the Lincoln in the Sierra Madres.
Iowa Dave

The great thing is: Escapes fit nicely on the road to Whitney Portal, which is where much of that movie was filmed.

[rbryan4]

I dunno Dave. After all, the movie was called the LONG LONG Trailer. Maybe an Escape 24 is in order.

[Loren & Cathy]

What I took note of in that movie was the dolly that carried the weight of the trailer hitch. Don’t know if anything like that exists today. Loren

[rbryan4]

Originally Posted by Loren & Cathy

What I took note of in that movie was the dolly that carried the weight of the trailer hitch. Don’t know if anything like that exists today. Loren

Yeah, noticed that as well. It seemed pretty common to use such a setup with longer trailers back then, taking the hitch weight off the tow vehicle. Of course with the tiny wheels no telling how it would tow at freeway speeds, but back then I guess they didn't have to. The most common ones back in the 50s were called Slimp wheels.

There are a few modern versions out there, with larger wheels that would allow faster towing speeds. The biggest difference is that the ones from the 50s attached to the trailer, and the ones from today attach to the tow. There's one called Hitch Helper that has a rack across the top and is designed to carry a motorcycle between the trailer and the tow vehicle. I noted in all their photos that they are using an Andersen WDH. This setup takes the idea of an extended stinger to a whole new level.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Loren & Cathy

Just buy a big whomping pickup and to heck with all this math. When we got back from Rice, Texas and all primed to buy a Casita, I said I was going to buy a truck where I only used a third of my towing capacity. I then had enough to move up to the 21.

I’m the kind of guy who always overbuilt everything and was in big trouble when I screwed up and had to take it apart. Loren

hhahahah, did virtually the same thing in reverse. had a tacoma, max tow 6500 lbs, max payload 1200 lbs (so, subtract 500-600 lbs for the E21 tongue weight, and thats a payload of maybe 600-700 lbs... my wife and I together weigh a good chunk of that, leaving hardly nothing for our gear). the tacoma towed the E21 cross country OK with the trailer and truck virtually empty, but I was shuddering to think what would happen with a heavy load, plus the gas mileage was awful, leaving a rather short useful per tank mile range.

so, we bought a 2002 F250 diesel... long bed, 'supercab' (extended cab, not crew cab), now can tow up to 12500 lbs, or carry 2000 lbs. the GCWR is nearly the truck's GVWR + max tow rating, so its virtually impossible to overload this thing. gets BETTER mileage, and has nearly twice as big a diesel tank, so the range per tank is now up around 600 miles, which is pretty close to the maximum we ever drive in a day. with the long bed, we'll never lack for space for things like popup awnings, lounge chairs, step ladders, my big telescope, etc.

[tractors1]

Originally Posted by rbryan4

Yeah, noticed that as well. It seemed pretty common to use such a setup with longer trailers back then, taking the hitch weight off the tow vehicle. Of course with the tiny wheels no telling how it would tow at freeway speeds, but back then I guess they didn't have to. The most common ones back in the 50s were called Slimp wheels.

There are a few modern versions out there, with larger wheels that would allow faster towing speeds. The biggest difference is that the ones from the 50s attached to the trailer, and the ones from today attach to the tow. There's one called Hitch Helper that has a rack across the top and is designed to carry a motorcycle between the trailer and the tow vehicle. I noted in all their photos that they are using an Andersen WDH. This setup takes the idea of an extended stinger to a whole new level.Attachment 33656Attachment 33657

Interesting idea - wonder how well the tires held up?

[Ripple]

Dan and Rita,
I think we know each other from the previous FG trailer group.
We just bought a 21 and towed it back from Chilliwack to Georgia with our 2018 Highlander.
2 people, no problems. We went to Ft Stevens State park, OR, Glacier, Yellowstone, Custer State Park, SD, and up to 10000 ft in Colorado. We chose the 21 due to extra space and no crawl-over bed.

John and Nelda.

[HomeCamp]

Originally Posted by Ripple

Dan and Rita,
I think we know each other from the previous FG trailer group.
We just bought a 21 and towed it back from Chilliwack to Georgia with our 2018 Highlander.
2 people, no problems. We went to Ft Stevens State park, OR, Glacier, Yellowstone, Custer State Park, SD, and up to 10000 ft in Colorado. We chose the 21 due to extra space and no crawl-over bed.

John and Nelda.

Hey John and Nelda,
I will send you a private message.
Dan and Rita

[covey]

Yes an open pickup box. We throw the Harley back there to explore destinations ! After a Casita, we bought a 21 and love it!