17B sold

[gabe]

Thanks to all who showed an interest in my 17B trailer.
It sold in 24 hours for the asking price.
gabe

[Rossue]

Gabe- congratulations on your sale. Was curious and read your other threads and noticed the trans problem in Nevada. Two things: as Brian said I wonder what the trans fluid level was prior to the incident(we'll never know), and more specifically I wonder about truly appropriate tow vehicles. There has been a lot of banter about %'s of a vehicles rating, however the phrase "if it sounds too good to be true" is ringing in my ears. Personally I don't think a 3000 lb. trailer should be towed without a V8, and for a 17B you are better off with a well- equipped V6/tow package IMHO.

[gabe]

Originally Posted by Rossue

Gabe- congratulations on your sale. Was curious and read your other threads and noticed the trans problem in Nevada. Two things: as Brian said I wonder what the trans fluid level was prior to the incident(we'll never know), and more specifically I wonder about truly appropriate tow vehicles. There has been a lot of banter about %'s of a vehicles rating, however the phrase "if it sounds too good to be true" is ringing in my ears. Personally I don't think a 3000 lb. trailer should be towed without a V8, and for a 17B you are better off with a well- equipped V6/tow package IMHO.

Hi Rossue:
The Ford Escape was well within its book-recommended capability. It was a V6 with towpackage and cooler. The tranny fluid was new as I had had the tranny flushed in Campbell River before I left for Havasu. I was alone, not towing with any water and had my trailer weighed in Havasu AZ. It was 2705lbs weight. I did not trash the tranny, as I drive gently and baby it going up hills and down hills. The AAMCO guy in Vegas (who has been doing trannies since he was drafted and sent to Vietnam as an Army tranny man....so he knows his business) said that no matter what the factory says, you cannot tow confidently with ANY suv, any Ford product below an F250...and then only when you have changed the factory cooler to a much larger one. He also said that what he sees coming thru his shop are Dodge Durangos, Dodge 1500's, Ford Escapes, Ford Explorer's, Ford Expeditions,......but not so many Chev/GM or Toyota products. I was camped in his shop for a week while he fixed my tranny and his parking lot was full of the above products waiting to be fixed. I believe the guy knows what he's talking about......after all, it's his profession and he has been doing it all his life. He advised me to sell the vehicle when I got home and upgrade to a truck. I have done this now and feel much more confident (fingers still crossed, tho).
For what it's worth, he also told me that on steep hills, I should gear down. I told him that I allow the tranny to shift itself down, but he said that doing it that way generates heat in the tranny as there is only one "element" engaged in the transmission. By physically shifting down with the shift-lever, he says that there are "3 elements engaged in the tranny" which is easier on the tranny and doesn't create as much heat. When I asked him to explain "elements" he replied "clutches".
Anyway, having being stranded in the middle of nowhere on the road to Death Valley with night coming on, I never want to experience that again. It was an expensive lesson for me to learn ($4,000 lesson!!)
But I'm still learning................and now I pay much more attention to the experienced experts and professionals.
Gabe

[gbaglo]

Only problem I have with his advice to manually shift down is that the Toyota RAV4 manual says not to do heavy towing or up long hills ( no specifics ) in 2 or 3. It says to tow in 4, which is just below D ( which I believe is OD ).
Anyway, ignored the advice once up the Coquihalla snowshed, towing in 3 at about 85-90kph, which caused the transmission fluid warning light to come on.
I've never had it come on towing the same road in 4. I just hit the accelerator and it gears down itself and then selects 4 again when speed has been regained.

[Loren & Cathy]

Gabe, You really had a siege there on that trip with the transmission problems. You said you got a truck. Just curious as to what you got for a tug. That is really something what that transmission guy told you in Vegas. I always felt that the transmission was the weakest link in the drive train. For towing, I set up a new truck with oversize cooling and the 3.73 rear end. I think a lot of trailers are going to break the 4000 pound mark when you start loading them. Anyway, thanks for the transmission information. Loren

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Rossue

Personally I don't think a 3000 lb. trailer should be towed without a V8...

Hmmm... does that mean that the big rigs towing 20-ton trailers down the highway need 100-cylinder (and presumably 4000 horsepower) engines? Typical modern 3.0L to 4.0L V6 engines routinely handle vehicles with 3000 pound trailers attached with no problems. The transmissions behind those engines also have no problem, when suitably equipped and operated.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by gabe

For what it's worth, he also told me that on steep hills, I should gear down. I told him that I allow the tranny to shift itself down, but he said that doing it that way generates heat in the tranny as there is only one "element" engaged in the transmission. By physically shifting down with the shift-lever, he says that there are "3 elements engaged in the tranny" which is easier on the tranny and doesn't create as much heat. When I asked him to explain "elements" he replied "clutches".

This is complete nonsense. I'm sure that here are not two different combinations of gearing and clutches to be in a particular gear; whether you get to that gear by moving the lever or letting the control system choose that gear, the power path through the transmission is the same.

It is true that the power path is a more robust combination or more efficient configuration in some gears than in others, so there may be gears avoid and gears to favour for a particular transmission; this may be the root of Baglo's experience with his RAV4.

[gabe]

Originally Posted by Loren & Cathy

Gabe, You really had a siege there on that trip with the transmission problems. You said you got a truck. Just curious as to what you got for a tug. That is really something what that transmission guy told you in Vegas. I always felt that the transmission was the weakest link in the drive train. For towing, I set up a new truck with oversize cooling and the 3.73 rear end. I think a lot of trailers are going to break the 4000 pound mark when you start loading them. Anyway, thanks for the transmission information. Loren

Well I bought a GMC half ton 4x2, v8 with a 3.73 rear end. The book says the engine and transmission are good for towing 8000lbs. However, having been stung once by Ford's book claiming a tow capacity of 3500lbs, I phoned GM customer assistance and was put onto a techie who told me that although the truck is rated for 8000lbs, nobody should tow at greater than 75% of the rated tow capacity. That, in my case, leaves me with a "safe" figure of 6,000lbs towing capacity. Asked why this was not written in the instruction book, he replied that nobody would be foolish enough to push any truck, or any vehicle to its limits, and this would particularly apply in mountaineous terrain or in hot areas of the country both of which cause massive heat generating in the tranny, and heat is the enemy of towing.
It remains to be seen how sane this advice is, but I am certainly going to limit my towing to 75% of the rated capacity...........(I don't want to pay another $4000 for not taking the advice).
In talking to many people about this problem, their opinions vary tremendously all over the place, but I'm inclined to take the manufacturer's advice. After all, they designed and made the product. The only thing that puzzles me is, why Ford and Chev/GMC don't put this advice in their instruction manuals and bold and underline it!!!

[Loren & Cathy]

The truck wars are really heating up out there, especially between Ford, Ram, and Chevy/GMC. Everyone wants their numbers to look as good as possible so no way would anyone say to limit your load to 75% of stated limits. I guess we all need to use our own discretion for a tow vehicle when it comes to these numbers. All I have ever owned is GM products, so GMC it was. Loren

[dave macrae]

I would have to say that the info given about what's engaged in a transmission is dead wrong . It makes no difference how the gear is selected as to what's applied. It's about as much nonsense as the the infamous "passing gear" that people talk about. By manually selecting the gear all that is accomplished is stopping unwanted shifts at the wrong time. It is the unwanted shifting "hunting " that creates the heat . Also using a under powered engine , therefore requiring the torque converter to slip a lot will also cause a lot of heat. I am always amazed at how much poor info floats around about this kind of stuff

[J Mac]

So... In my 2010 Ford Ranger 4L 4x4 with the factory installed tow package, I should tow my 17b with the OD turned off on up hill slopes but engage the OD on the flat?

[davescape]

Originally Posted by J Mac

So... In my 2010 Ford Ranger 4L 4x4 with the factory installed tow package, I should tow my 17b with the OD turned off on up hill slopes but engage the OD on the flat?

From the Ford 2010 Ranger Towing Guide:

"DRIVING WITH AN AUTOMATIC
OVERDRIVE TRANSMISSION
With certain automatic overdrive transmissions,
towing – especially in hilly areas – may cause
excessive shifting between overdrive and the next
lower gear.
• To eliminate this condition and achieve steadier
performance, overdrive can be locked out (see
vehicle Owner Guide)
• If excessive shifting does not occur, use overdrive
to optimize fuel economy
• Overdrive may also be locked out to obtain engine
braking on downgrades
• When available, select Tow/Haul mode to
automatically eliminate unwanted gear search and
help control vehicle speed when going downhill"

Dave McCrae was totally right, its the shifting that causes the heat in an automatic transmission. Another problem I've seen is the fear of bringing your engine up to its optimum RPM to obtain torque/horsepower. If the the vehicle is lugging (I define that as the inability to accelerate when you punch the gas while maintaining the same gear) then the engine is running inefficiently and will overheat and transfer that heat to the transmission. Everything cooks The solution to lugging is to shift down and let the engine wind up a bit. Running at a higher RPM is less damaging than lugging. Those with smaller vehicles should also shift to a lower gear before the hills and let it scream a little bit. This is particularly apt for standards since the process of shifting on the hill will drop your speed substantially. The increased noise you hear from your vehicle is the pleasant growl (or whine) of an engine released to do what it was designed to do.8) Of course it will burn more fuel, but that's the trade off for selecting a smaller vehicle for towing.

My Dodge Cummins would burble along at 1800 RPM with any kind of load, I used to run my bike at 9000+ RPM, and I've towed a travel trailer at 5000 RPM with a Chev V-6. As Donna would say, YMMV. Everyone needs to become familiar with the limits of their particular TV.

BTW the 4.0 Ranger should be more than adequate for towing an Escape

[J Mac]

Thank you sir!
BTW we just waded through the stress of booking 2 camp sites at our favorite camp site, Okanagan North. 6 computers and 3 days of trying but we scored. That, along with your news and I'm ready to flush out the system and head on out.

[Fox hunt]

I always turn off over drive when towing my gooseneck trailer in my ford truck. It doesn't seem like it would have enough power in overdrive. I turn it back on when cruising on the freeway - I have a big truck it's not working that hard on the freeway. I shift into a lower gear when going down a mountain so I'm not on my brakes that is what I was taught not sure if it's right but it's served me well. When I was a child my dad burned out his brakes while going down Mount Shasta - no brakes on that twisty road is something that you never forget.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Fox hunt

I shift into a lower gear when going down a mountain so I'm not on my brakes that is what I was taught not sure if it's right but it's served me well.

That's right - engine braking is appropriate when a grade requires a continued retarding force. If you still need to be on the gas to keep it moving at a suitable speed, you didn't need to downshift; that's one reason for not just driving in a lower gear all the time.

In some vehicles it is not necessary to manually downshift, as the transmission control logic will downshift for you (such as my Toyota's "Grade Logic", and cruise control behaviour in my Ford F53-based motorhome and some cars which I have rented).

[DeadEyeDan]

The hill going into Death Valley at least from the Panimint Springs side has probably killed many a truck. The return trip is just as bad if not worse.

(Never tow up steep grades in overdrive. Never tow with a TUG that is at or near capacity.)