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Old 12-01-2014, 10:49 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by padlin View Post
This is from the fifth wheel, as you can see there are 3 modules, each a double breaker...
Thanks Bob. Yours confirms that additional high-power equipment - such as the air conditioner and the water heater element - uses additional breakers.
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Old 12-01-2014, 10:56 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
Is your question the number of outlets or the number of circuits. With 3 x15 amp circuits your are exceeding the 30 amp capacity, if you used each to their fullest.
That's normal. Since it is not normal to use all branch circuits at their maximum rating simultaneously, the total of the branch circuits is typically much greater than the main breaker capacity (I don't remember the factor allowed). If you total the breakers in your house, I'll bet they add up to much more than the main breaker or panel rating. To avoid going overboard on this total, it would be handy if a circuit which needs very little capacity (such as one running just the refrigerator, or just the converter, or even both together) had a lower breaker rating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
But outlets, there are 5 duplex which are standard, in a house these all 5 could be on one 15 amp circuit.
Yes, there could be a dozen devices (outlets or lights) on a circuit; that's so you can use the one which is located conveniently, or run a bunch of little stuff at the same time, in either case using less than the 15 amp rating. On the other hand, a home kitchen has multiple circuits available; the trailer is like a whole house, which always has several circuits - it's not like a couple of bedrooms, which might have several outlets between them but all on one 15-amp circuit.
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Old 12-01-2014, 11:01 PM   #23
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Perhaps the trailer builders are following electrical code and would not get certification if they wired it your way?
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Originally Posted by Klem View Post
I did some checking and there is appears to be no requirement to meet codes federally or any state...
There is the CSA standard for RVs, but more importantly, I don't see anything in what Steve is suggesting which would violate electrical code even for a residential building. In fact, I don't think having only a single 15A circuit for the kitchen (aside from the dedicated circuits for microwave, etc) would meet code requirements in a house... although perhaps that may depend on the countertop length.

As I mentioned earlier, I would want kitchen access to two circuits.
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Old 12-01-2014, 11:06 PM   #24
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We play guitars around the campfire all the time, just not the type that plug in. And trust me, we have no need to amplify.
I'm sure the other people in the area are happier without those guitars amplified
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Old 12-02-2014, 06:56 AM   #25
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Given that our trailers have less square footage than a typical master bedroom or a decent sized kitchen, it is likely that the various manufactures do not see a need for multiple outlets for utility circuits. Nor Would they foresee a reason to do so. Most people probably do not use the wide array of kitchen appliances when camping as they do at home, and due to counter size in a small camper, not at the same time. Nor is anyone likely to do any arc welding at the campsite or host an electrified rock concert as I jokingly mentioned in a previous post. I would therefore propose that the utility circuits installed in our eggs meet the requirements of 99% of us, and that is why our campers are wired the way that they are.
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Old 12-02-2014, 07:42 AM   #26
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I'm sure the other people in the area are happier without those guitars amplified
Usually, the only ones affected by our singing are the coyotes, and they join along.

If we are in a campground (a very rare occasion), we don't play as late into the night, and usually invite others to our fire, which more times than not is gladly accepted.
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Old 12-02-2014, 11:04 AM   #27
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Being a licensed master electrician for over 40 years and a licensed NEC instructor at a vocational college for 35 years ,I know and understand the NEC .The NEC is not a design manual by definition and is considered as a minimum standard . The code and best practice are not one and the same . One can wire a new home to "code" but that does not mean the home is adequately wired for its' application . Casita uses all 12-2 NM for wiring ,allowing a 20 amp circuit in the kitchen. The use of 14-2 wiring in a trailer is NOT a code requirement and is done as a cost saving method while still complying with the minimum standard of the code . If I purchase an Escape ,I will again have to rewire a trailer to fit our needs and style of usage but that is our decision to make
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Old 12-02-2014, 11:12 AM   #28
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Have you discussed your requirements with ETI, since it would likely be easier to accomplish during the build?
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Old 12-02-2014, 11:29 AM   #29
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The use of 14-2 wiring in a trailer is NOT a code requirement and is done as a cost saving method while still complying with the minimum standard of the code .
I don't think that is a fair comment. I use 14-2 to wire a house because it's perfectly suitable for use in most of the circuits. Of course specialty circuits have other requirements but your comment implies that Escape is cost cutting by using 14-2. They're not, it's perfectly suitable for typical users.

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Old 12-02-2014, 11:31 AM   #30
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I don't think that is a fair comment. I use 14-2 to wire a house because it's perfectly suitable for use in most of the circuits. Of course specialty circuits have other requirements but your comment implies that Escape is cost cutting by using 14-2. They're not, it's perfectly suitable for typical users.

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Exactly, they only use #12 wire in commercial establishments.
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Old 12-02-2014, 11:51 AM   #31
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12-2

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Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
Exactly, they only use #12 wire in commercial establishments.
In homes your kitchen ,laundry, pantry ,dining rm ,dinettes bathroom receptacles are all wired in 12-2 and required by code to be on a 20 amp circuit . The kitchen requires 2 separate 20 amp circuit as does the laundry .. 14-2 wiring in homes is used for general lighting circuits in bedrooms ,hallways ..,living rm based on the calculated load of 3 watts per square ft.. The cost of 12-2 cable is considerably more than 14-2 and also incurs other costs such as requiring larger junction boxes . # 12 wire is not a code requirement in commercial applications but is a best practice rule. You could wire a whole house in #12 and comply with the code but it does not make a better job or financial sense.
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Old 12-02-2014, 01:25 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by steve dunham View Post
In homes your kitchen ,laundry, pantry ,dining rm ,dinettes bathroom receptacles are all wired in 12-2 and required by code to be on a 20 amp circuit . The kitchen requires 2 separate 20 amp circuit as does the laundry .. 14-2 wiring in homes is used for general lighting circuits in bedrooms ,hallways ..,living rm based on the calculated load of 3 watts per square ft.. The cost of 12-2 cable is considerably more than 14-2 and also incurs other costs such as requiring larger junction boxes . # 12 wire is not a code requirement in commercial applications but is a best practice rule. You could wire a whole house in #12 and comply with the code but it does not make a better job or financial sense.
Codes must be different in Canada, but I didn't think so.

The only thing residential standard that by code uses 20A wiring, is in a kitchen, and the outlets must be GFI protected, with no more than 2 on a circuit. This has been the case for near 10 years, and before that, it was 15A with split receptacles (the two on any one duplex plug on separate circuits) was the standard, but is still acceptable.

The rest of the house can be done on 15A circuits, with a maximum of 12 plugs/lights per circuit, and I have never seen it done differently.

But yes, you can run 20A circuits if you wish, and if you think there will be the possibility of a higher current demand, or the need to operate an appliance or equipment requiring it. I wired all my garage 120V outlets for 20A, and the 240V with 20A and 30A.

I do agree that the Electrical Code is a minimum, and in part laid out from a safety perspective. There is nothing at all wrong with wiring to exceed code, especially in areas that might need it. Though not required, we always wire bathroom counter plugs to be on a separate 15A circuit, as things like hair dryers and curling irons draw a good sized load.
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Old 12-02-2014, 01:50 PM   #33
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Codes must be different in Canada, but I didn't think so.

The only thing residential standard that by code uses 20A wiring, is in a kitchen, and the outlets must be GFI protected, with no more than 2 on a circuit. This has been the case for near 10 years, and before that, it was 15A with split receptacles (the two on any one duplex plug on separate circuits) was the standard, but is still acceptable.

The rest of the house can be done on 15A circuits, with a maximum of 12 plugs/lights per circuit, and I have never seen it done differently.

But yes, you can run 20A circuits if you wish, and if you think there will be the possibility of a higher current demand, or the need to operate an appliance or equipment requiring it. I wired all my garage 120V outlets for 20A, and the 240V with 20A and 30A.

I do agree that the Electrical Code is a minimum, and in part laid out from a safety perspective. There is nothing at all wrong with wiring to exceed code, especially in areas that might need it. Though not required, we always wire bathroom counter plugs to be on a separate 15A circuit, as things like hair dryers and curling irons draw a good sized load.
Jim , I asked a simple question of fact " How many 120 VAC circuits and what amperage circuits are provided in a new Escape 21 . I was not attempting to give code lessons . I have no intentions of running a welder from my trailer . The standard in homes is to have 20 amp circuits in the kitchen which allows you to run 2 appliances at the same time . This could easily be accomplished in any trailer and Casita is providing the 20 amp circuit in the kitchen. I assumed with Escapes attention to detail that their wiring would exceed the bare minimum and I assumed incorrectly . Evidently this is not the website to ask anything that could / would reflect unfavorably on Escape or questions the faith!!
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Old 12-02-2014, 01:57 PM   #34
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I don't think the issue is a question of faith in Escape. It's more a question of camping style. I have no microwave, coffee maker, toaster, hair dryer or anything else that needs to be plugged in to a 20 amp circuit, nor do I desire to pay for such.
You described having to rewire several different RVs to get the circuitry you want. That suggests that you are not the typical buyer of a small trailer.
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Old 12-02-2014, 02:15 PM   #35
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Evidently this is not the website to ask anything that could / would reflect unfavorably on Escape or questions the faith!!
I know you are new here Steve, but you should go back a ways to do some reading. Many have asked for things they desire that Escape does not include as a standard. Even I questioned Reace on lots of ideas, some he gave in to, and some not. For me it is more of a question as to why, in the case of running 20A circuits. There are two plugs available in the kitchen on two separate circuits. You would have to introduce a third appliance, where the current draw of the smallest two appliances would exceed the protection on a 15A circuit, to blow the breaker. Who has that kind of stuff in these small trailers?

If Reace was to overbuild lots of the trailer components, and add in top of the line fittings, he would price himself out of a huge part of the segment he markets too.

If I was building my own trailer, I would likely overbuild for sure, and add the high end stuff, that is my nature and how I do things. But if any two of us did this same thing, I bet we wouldn't use a lot of the same stuff.
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Old 12-02-2014, 02:24 PM   #36
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Another consideration Steve is the finished product. ETI does a good job in wiring and routing and the finished product. I've seen Parkliner and Eggcamper and Scamps wiring, all not up to ETI's standard. Perhaps if ETI used the thicker wire they could not still make the tight bends, I do not know. But all you have to do is ask them to wire your trailer with the 20 amp wires and outlets, see if they will.
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Old 12-02-2014, 02:48 PM   #37
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When ordering our 21 ft and I wanted to relocate some of the outlets I was told by Reace himself that he only likes to add additional outlets not move the standand ones. I believe and don't quote me on this that it was something to do with the harnesses are made up ahead of time and its way easier to add to then change the origianal harness. Again thats just what I remember but there was a lot going on at the time.
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Old 12-02-2014, 02:50 PM   #38
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There are two plugs available in the kitchen on two separate circuits.
The layout which Abby linked to (21' electrical plan) shows only one in the kitchen counter area, but it might not be current or complete... and I didn't survey outlets when I looked inside any of the Escape display models. Where's the second outlet, and is it an unlisted option?
(I'm not counting the ones in the cabinetry on the other side of the trailer, as it is obviously not practical to plug a countertop appliance into them.)
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Old 12-02-2014, 02:54 PM   #39
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When ordering our 21 ft and I wanted to relocate some of the outlets I was told by Reace himself that he only likes to add additional outlets not move the standand ones. I believe and don't quote me on this that it was something to do with the harnesses are made up ahead of time and its way easier to add to then change the origianal harness.
That makes a lot of sense to me, and is consistent with the way I saw the 12VDC wiring harnesses being built at the factory. The 120VAC wiring might also be set up outside and put into the trailer as a harness; at the very least, keeping the standard wiring would be good to avoid issues in design or assembly.
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Old 12-02-2014, 02:59 PM   #40
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This is also the reason why most other trailer companies will not even add, let alone move an outlet. Ask Airstream to make change, furgetaboutit.
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