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Old 10-10-2014, 07:28 PM   #1
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21' fresh really 30 gal?

Does anyone know if the 21' really has a 30-gallon fresh tank (with a 30-gallon gray tank)?
Not the situation with the 19' with room for the six gallons from the water heater.
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Old 10-10-2014, 08:02 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Floating Cloud View Post
Does anyone know if the 21' really has a 30-gallon fresh tank (with a 30-gallon gray tank)?
Not the situation with the 19' with room for the six gallons from the water heater.
Yes. Fresh, gray and black are 30, 30, 22, respectively. The 19 is 20, 26, 19.
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Old 10-10-2014, 09:00 PM   #3
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Does anyone know why they did that instead of their normal way?
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Old 10-10-2014, 09:27 PM   #4
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Does anyone know why they did that instead of their normal way?
What is the "normal way"?
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Old 10-10-2014, 09:44 PM   #5
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If I understand my orientation correctly IF the shower drain on the 19 is not tight and the gray tank is too full, you will have back flow into the shower. So the tank size in gallons is a 'guide'to capacity but isn't as critical as the fluid level.

On our Scamp there was a pump which serves as a back flow preventer near the shower drain.

When I visually inspected under the 19' it looked to me like back flow into the shower could happen especially if you were driving and the gray water sloshed to the shower side. I keep the shower drain tightly closed!
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Old 10-10-2014, 10:14 PM   #6
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Just FYI, I checked with ETI and the "gallons" are US-sized gallons, not Imperial gallons........
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Old 10-10-2014, 11:02 PM   #7
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If I understand my orientation correctly IF the shower drain on the 19 is not tight and the gray tank is too full, you will have back flow into the shower...
When I visually inspected under the 19' it looked to me like back flow into the shower could happen especially if you were driving and the gray water sloshed to the shower side.
I think that's pretty common. RV grey waste tanks are normally directly against the underside of the trailer floor, and the shower floor is immediately on top of the trailer floor. My motorhome has the shower floor on a riser, but it has the ceiling height to do this - my Boler trailer does not, and any overflow or sloshing will back up into the shower.

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On our Scamp there was a pump which serves as a back flow preventer near the shower drain.
I wouldn't call the Scamp pump a back flow preventer - I believe it's needed to get the water from the shower to go to the gray tank at all. I think it's good to avoid that extra pump if practical.
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Old 10-11-2014, 10:35 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Klem View Post
If I understand my orientation correctly IF the shower drain on the 19 is not tight and the gray tank is too full, you will have back flow into the shower. So the tank size in gallons is a 'guide'to capacity but isn't as critical as the fluid level.

On our Scamp there was a pump which serves as a back flow preventer near the shower drain.

When I visually inspected under the 19' it looked to me like back flow into the shower could happen especially if you were driving and the gray water sloshed to the shower side. I keep the shower drain tightly closed!
We actually had the reverse problem. We had the trap from the shower empty into the gray tank when traveling on rough roads. When we stopped there was a fowl odor in the bathroom. A cup of water into the shower drain fixed that. I believe that Escape has changed the trap design since ours was built. Never did we have gray water come back into the shower nor did we use a stopper in that drain. We rarely traveled with the gray tank full but usually there was something in the tank.

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Old 10-11-2014, 10:44 AM   #9
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I don't really know what the op is referring to.

Is the suggestion that the 21's 30 gallon fresh water tank actually has a 24 gallon capacity, and the 6 gallon h/w heater tank contains the balance? Ditto for the 19' - 13 gallon fresh capacity plus 6 gallon h/w tank?
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Old 10-11-2014, 02:26 PM   #10
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I don't really know what the op is referring to.

Is the suggestion that the 21's 30 gallon fresh water tank actually has a 24 gallon capacity, and the 6 gallon h/w heater tank contains the balance?
The water heater volume is literally not part of the fresh water tank, and it also doesn't count toward the trailer's total fresh water carrying capacity. It is necessary to carry water in the heater (if you want hot water), but you can never use it as an extra six gallons because the heater must remain full to be used, and because there is no way for the pump to push this water out to the rest of the trailer.
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Old 10-11-2014, 04:56 PM   #11
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The water heater volume is literally not part of the fresh water tank, and it also doesn't count toward the trailer's total fresh water carrying capacity. It is necessary to carry water in the heater (if you want hot water), but you can never use it as an extra six gallons because the heater must remain full to be used, and because there is no way for the pump to push this water out to the rest of the trailer.
yes, of course. i was just trying to clarify what the op is referring to. not that it matters. i just don't understand their point/question about if the 21' really has a 30 gallon fresh water tank or if it's like the 19 and its water heater. nor what the op means by asking why eti didn't do things the normal way.
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Old 10-11-2014, 05:09 PM   #12
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I have made the assumption that water does come from the six gallons in the heater, that that is in fact the water we get at the faucets when we turn on the hot water faucets. (Whether you need six gallons in there to work the heater is another question --- and you will burn out the element if insufficient water.)

If you do not have six gallons in the heater and you know you may not have that much because you are running low on water, and so you keep the heater off, is that water not still coming out of the hot water faucets? (Perhaps not hot)

I took it that that is the reason that the 19' has 20 gallons fresh and 26 gallons gray. Perhaps this is all not correct.
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Old 10-11-2014, 06:17 PM   #13
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I have made the assumption that water does come from the six gallons in the heater, that that is in fact the water we get at the faucets when we turn on the hot water faucets. (Whether you need six gallons in there to work the heater is another question --- and you will burn out the element if insufficient water.)

If you do not have six gallons in the heater and you know you may not have that much because you are running low on water, and so you keep the heater off, is that water not still coming out of the hot water faucets? (Perhaps not hot)

I took it that that is the reason that the 19' has 20 gallons fresh and 26 gallons gray. Perhaps this is all not correct.
As Brian noted, there is no way to "pull" water out of the water heater - if you run out of water in the fresh water tank, the pump won't pull anything out of it so it can't "push" out the hot water. You would get neither hot or cold water out of the faucet.
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Old 10-11-2014, 06:47 PM   #14
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Okay, then what is the extra six gallons in the gray tank on the 19' for?

I thought that there were people who said they did put more water in the fresh tank to get that extra six gallons use. You would be one, Jon, who I would think might do that, if it applies to the 17' --- don't know.

Of course, this completely ignores that some goes into the black tank.
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Old 10-11-2014, 07:58 PM   #15
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I was initially looking at the 20 and 30 fresh in the 19' and 21' respectively and why the 19' would have a gray capacity of six gallons greater than the fresh. The 21' does not, with 30 and 30.
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Old 10-11-2014, 10:37 PM   #16
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Okay, then what is the extra six gallons in the gray tank on the 19' for?
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I was initially looking at the 20 and 30 fresh in the 19' and 21' respectively and why the 19' would have a gray capacity of six gallons greater than the fresh. The 21' does not, with 30 and 30.
Okay, now this is making sense.

One approach to tank sizing is to have the same size of fresh and gray tanks - that way, even if you don't use any water for the toilet, the gray tank can hold all of the waste water resulting from using a full tank of fresh water.
The Escape 21' (30 gal fresh / 30 gal gray / 22 gal black) and 5.0TA (28 gal fresh / 28 gal gray / 30 gal black) appear to follow this logic, although I don't know why the 5.0TA black tank is so large.

A more common approach is to have a total waste tank capacity (gray plus black) larger than the fresh tank, but without having the gray tank as large as the fresh tank. The assumption is that some of the water will end up in the black tank, but the ratio of gray to black varies, so they're bigger in total than the fresh.
I don't think any current Escape models follow this approach.

Another approach is recognize that often there is a source of freshwater (a campsite with water service) but not a waste dump at the site, so the length of stay is limited only by the waste tanks... so it is useful to have the waste tanks big compared to the fresh tank.
Perhaps this is the reasoning behind the sizes in the Escape 19' and 17' (20 gal fresh / 26 gal gray / 19 gal black) and Escape 15' (20 gal fresh / 26 gal gray / 14 gal black).


Of course, sometimes it's mostly a matter of what fits in and under the trailer... :
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Old 10-11-2014, 11:05 PM   #17
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You have to consider the beer factor. I have a couple cups of coffee in the morning, but that's my only consumption of fresh water ( other than flushing and perhaps a shower ).
Now, most of my beer consumption ends up in the black tank or behind a tree, but there is more to consider than meets the lips, obviously.
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Old 10-11-2014, 11:29 PM   #18
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Yes, Brian, we were thinking about the fact that some models do not even have a toilet or they are little used, so the gray is looked on as having to accommodate the fresh. But as you point out, all of the Escapes had this same approach and now with the new ones, it is a different approach with the 30-30 and 28-28.

I realized that the 21' fresh could be filled twice without dumping theoretically, but with only having a 30 gray, that is not going to work for most people. If the 21' had a 40' gray, then that could work well. A 35' gray would be possible but iffy with two fills totaling 60 gallons, leaving just a little in fresh. The fact that they suddenly went to the same capacity for gray as fresh limits the situation but is somewhat made up for with the black being 22. Can almost use two fills. There are situations with no dump but water available.

I look at a number of features including layout and bed size and more but the tank situation is often overlooked.
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Old 10-11-2014, 11:45 PM   #19
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You have to consider the beer factor. I have a couple cups of coffee in the morning, but that's my only consumption of fresh water ( other than flushing and perhaps a shower ).
Now, most of my beer consumption ends up in the black tank or behind a tree, but there is more to consider than meets the lips, obviously.
Even teetotalers can use those extra six gallons.
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Old 10-11-2014, 11:53 PM   #20
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I've never had to dump because the grey tank was full. It's always been the black reaching its limit. Never used up all the fresh either, but we keep a 5 gal. container at the picnic table, where we do most cooking and dish washing.
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