E-21 Kitchen water supply lines (classic) - Escape Trailer Owners Community

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Old 09-28-2018, 09:09 AM   #1
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E-21 Kitchen water supply lines (classic)

I think Scamp and Casita did it right by keeping the water supply lines inside the trailer. It really makes it easier to camp in colder weather and extend your camping season with inside water supply lines. Escape's 21 outside water supply routing also results with four holes drilled through the floor, 4-6 extra PEX fittings, and 8-12 extra crimps. A home run of PEX from the kitchen faucet around the inside rear of the trailer to the other plumbing may use more PEX tubing but cost would be offset in material, reliability and possible labor savings. Also the current PEX routing also make it really difficult to isolate the outside exposed water supply lines for winter camping. I feel Escape needs to reevaluate their water supply plumbing routing if they have not done so in the newer models. Before I get jumped on, this is just a concern and product improvement suggestion.

Eddie
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Old 09-28-2018, 01:54 PM   #2
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I think Scamp and Casita did it right by keeping the water supply lines inside the trailer. It really makes it easier to camp in colder weather and extend your camping season with inside water supply lines. Escape's 21 outside water supply routing also results with four holes drilled through the floor, 4-6 extra PEX fittings, and 8-12 extra crimps. A home run of PEX from the kitchen faucet around the inside rear of the trailer to the other plumbing may use more PEX tubing but cost would be offset in material, reliability and possible labor savings. Also the current PEX routing also make it really difficult to isolate the outside exposed water supply lines for winter camping. I feel Escape needs to reevaluate their water supply plumbing routing if they have not done so in the newer models. Before I get jumped on, this is just a concern and product improvement suggestion.

Eddie
You left out the biggest issue for me with the 21 kitchen faucet PEX tubing. It's exposed to UV! PEX should never be run where it is exposed to UV as it will cause the PEX tubing to break down and fail.

https://www.doityourself.com/stry/ho...ed-to-sunlight
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Old 09-28-2018, 02:02 PM   #3
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Escape doesn't claim to be a 4 season trailer. While it would be possible to run the water lines in a 21 inside the trailer, the run from the water heater to the kitchen (running across the back of the trailer) would be long enough that one would waste a lot of water waiting for the hot water to reach the faucet. Not so good for boondocking.

Redesigning the trailer so the water heater was located under the passenger rear bench seat might work, but that would require wider bench seats, and a long run to the shower/bathroom sink. All is a compromise...

As to UV, not much direct sun hits the lines in my 21.
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Old 09-28-2018, 02:09 PM   #4
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I put pipe insulation around the outside pex lines. I used a large diameter tube and wrapped it around both the cold and hot lines. That way the hot water in one line would help keep the other from freezing. I also wrapped the elbows with saran wrap and then sprayed some expandable foam on them. No uv and additional protection from freezing.
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Old 09-28-2018, 02:27 PM   #5
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Escape doesn't claim to be a 4 season trailer. While it would be possible to run the water lines in a 21 inside the trailer, the run from the water heater to the kitchen (running across the back of the trailer) would be long enough that one would waste a lot of water waiting for the hot water to reach the faucet. Not so good for boondocking.

Redesigning the trailer so the water heater was located under the passenger rear bench seat might work, but that would require wider bench seats, and a long run to the shower/bathroom sink. All is a compromise...

As to UV, not much direct sun hits the lines in my 21.
UV damage doesn't require direct sun - indirect (reflected) UV will damage PEX as well. Think about it - can you sunburn on the beach under an umbrella? UV can bounce off pavement and damage the tubing. A covering of pipe insulation on the exposed PEX is good idea.

Or carry a couple of sections of PEX, fittings and a crimper for when the PEX bursts.
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Old 09-28-2018, 02:36 PM   #6
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Or carry a couple of sections of PEX, fittings and a crimper for when the PEX bursts.
Oh, I carry so much what-if stuff, I really can't face adding more to my traveling spare parts supply. I'm glad I have a 19 so the lines are inside, but maybe I will feel different if any PEX fails.
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Old 09-28-2018, 05:04 PM   #7
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As long as we're making suggestions... a possible routing of the lines which cross the trailer would be at the step in the floor. The pipes would be on the inside of the shell, just in front of the step, from the cabinet under the refrigerator to the cabinet under the sink. The raised rear (dinette) floor would be extended forward just enough to cover them. A toe kick panel (or think of it as a stair riser panel) would finish off the front side, preferably vented so the space would run closer to interior temperature than exterior.

The 5.0TA has the same layout as the 21' in this area, and presumably the same exterior water lines; the same solution would work.
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Old 09-29-2018, 10:39 AM   #8
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I would have the water lines outside the shell in case of a leak....
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Old 09-29-2018, 10:51 AM   #9
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water lines

Now you're all making me like our little 17B even more. We never had a problem with the 19 or 21 water lines but the 17B has the pump, water heater, kitchen sink and bath all in line and close. Of course there are other advantages, Nancy doesn't take a vacuum along, something about not enough floor to need one.
Jack, Nancy and Murphy
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Old 09-29-2018, 11:01 AM   #10
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Now you're all making me like our little 17B even more. We never had a problem with the 19 or 21 water lines but the 17B has the pump, water heater, kitchen sink and bath all in line and close. Of course there are other advantages, Nancy doesn't take a vacuum along, something about not enough floor to need one.
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Old 09-29-2018, 12:24 PM   #11
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Correct me if i’m wrong, but I think the outside pen lines are covered by the foam insulation if you have it. Have never seen any lines under our trailer. Loren
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Old 09-29-2018, 12:48 PM   #12
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Now you're all making me like our little 17B even more. We never had a problem with the 19 or 21 water lines but the 17B has the pump, water heater, kitchen sink and bath all in line and close. Of course there are other advantages, Nancy doesn't take a vacuum along, something about not enough floor to need one.
Jack, Nancy and Murphy

Ditto:


We love our 17.
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Old 09-29-2018, 03:06 PM   #13
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Correct me if i’m wrong, but I think the outside pen lines are covered by the foam insulation if you have it. Have never seen any lines under our trailer. Loren
That's correct, if you have the foam.
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Old 09-29-2018, 10:00 PM   #14
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Now you're all making me like our little 17B even more. We never had a problem with the 19 or 21 water lines but the 17B has the pump, water heater, kitchen sink and bath all in line and close. Of course there are other advantages, Nancy doesn't take a vacuum along, something about not enough floor to need one.
Jack, Nancy and Murphy
Our 15B has even less floor space to vacuum.
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Old 09-29-2018, 10:20 PM   #15
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I put pipe insulation around the outside pex lines. I used a large diameter tube and wrapped it around both the cold and hot lines. That way the hot water in one line would help keep the other from freezing. ...
Isn't that a bit self-defeating during normal camping temperatures? Seems your hot water would struggle to stay hot because the cold water line next to it would keep cooling it down, and cold water would be more lukewarm, if that matters.
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Old 05-31-2019, 09:54 AM   #16
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Correct me if i’m wrong, but I think the outside pex lines are covered by the foam insulation if you have it. Have never seen any lines under our trailer. Loren
I was just in a seminar yesterday on PEX and it came to my attention that PEX is not recommended to be embedded in spray foam. The heat during curing of the foam can damage the piping. If it must be done the foam is supposed to be sprayed on at a maximum depth of 2" and allowed to cool. Then subsequent passes can be made. I hope that Escape is taking this into consideration on trailers with PEX outside the shell coupled with the underfloor insulation.

This comes from Versi-Foam who is a maker of polyurethane spray foam insulation systems:
"PEX piping is comprised of a highly-cross linked polyethylene (thermoplastic) material. PEX piping is chemical resistant and will not adversely react with Versi-Foam products. Thermoplastics, such as PEX, when heated in excess of 200 degrees Fahrenheit, could potentially melt. Versi-Foam® generates heat as it cures and we strongly recommend that you dispense no more than two inches in one application. Allow each layer to cure, and add foam to the top of it. One layer of foam will bond completely to the next. Applying the foam in excess thickness of what is recommended could result in temperatures exceeding the ratings of the PEX tubing and possibly melting could occur."
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Old 05-31-2019, 10:02 AM   #17
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I was just in a seminar yesterday on PEX and it came to my attention that PEX is not recommended to be embedded in spray foam. The heat during curing of the foam can damage the piping. If it must be done the foam is supposed to be sprayed on at a maximum depth of 2" and allowed to cool. Then subsequent passes can be made. I hope that Escape is taking this into consideration on trailers with PEX outside the shell coupled with the underfloor insulation.

This comes from Versi-Foam who is a maker of polyurethane spray foam insulation systems:
"PEX piping is comprised of a highly-cross linked polyethylene (thermoplastic) material. PEX piping is chemical resistant and will not adversely react with Versi-Foam products. Thermoplastics, such as PEX, when heated in excess of 200 degrees Fahrenheit, could potentially melt. Versi-Foam generates heat as it cures and we strongly recommend that you dispense no more than two inches in one application. Allow each layer to cure, and add foam to the top of it. One layer of foam will bond completely to the next. Applying the foam in excess thickness of what is recommended could result in temperatures exceeding the ratings of the PEX tubing and possibly melting could occur."


Presumably the failure mode would be leaky PEX, yes? Judging by a general lack of reporting of such issues, I would surmise that ETI’s application technique does not seem to be problematic. Thoughts?
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Old 05-31-2019, 10:12 AM   #18
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Ditto what Scott just said. We've owned our 2017 21' for nearly 2 1/2 years, with the factory spray foam underneath, and had no PEX leaks under there so far. It's a bit hard to accurately measure the thickness of the spray foam without poking holes in it, which I'm not going to do, but it looks to be less than 2" thick throughout. None the less, that's good information to know.
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Old 05-31-2019, 10:36 AM   #19
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Most building codes ( Plumbing , Electrical , Heating ,Building ) require that products must be installed according to the manufacturers instructions , its UL listing and only for it intended purpose . The codes often do not specifically address how a product should be installed .
This often leads to problems that don’t manifest themselves immediately but show up at a later date .
IE : The electrical code at one time allowed the use of NM (Romex) which contained conductors rated at 60 deg C . When recessed lights first became common many did not read and follow the fixture manufacturers directions which required the use of 90 deg C branch circuit conductors and continued to use wire rated for 60 deg C
The lights functioned properly for a period of time until the heat from the fixtures eventually caused the wire’s insulation to deteriorate and short out .

My point is that the Pex tubing may have been damaged / weakened when the foam was first installed and a problem may not occur until later or when subjected to higher pressures
Escape may well have followed the proper installation procedures but a this point we can only guess
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Old 05-31-2019, 10:40 AM   #20
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Presumably the failure mode would be leaky PEX, yes? Judging by a general lack of reporting of such issues, I would surmise that ETI’s application technique does not seem to be problematic. Thoughts?
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Ditto what Scott just said. We've owned our 2017 21' for nearly 2 1/2 years, with the factory spray foam underneath, and had no PEX leaks under there so far. It's a bit hard to accurately measure the thickness of the spray foam without poking holes in it, which I'm not going to do, but it looks to be less than 2" thick throughout. None the less, that's good information to know.
Agreed. I'm not trying to create a problem where there isn't one. It just caught my eye and might be something for owners to consider whether on a trailer or home. The mysterious leak that was recently reported by akmacs between his spray foam and shell raised my eyebrows. Also I thought with the 4" frame that the spray foam was thicker than 2".
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