Furnace

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

The 16 ft Scamp and the 16/17 ft Casita both come with a 16,000 btu imput furnace. The Escape 21 comes with a 12,000 btu imput furnace.
Assuming a Standard Escape 21 ( Without the insulation ,thermal window option ) , down to what outside temp will the Escape furnace maintain a 70 deg F interior temperature ?.
I will admit that my 16,000 btu Casita furnace,seems like overkill most of the time but when camping at temps well below zero not so much so.

My father had a 1999 Scamp 16 that had a 12,000 BTU input furnace. It appears they switched to the NT-16SE when Suburban stopped making the NT-12SE furnace. The Escape 19 (extra insulation, regular windows) stays heated well at pretty cold temps with the stock 12,000 BTU input (9,160 output) Atwood Hydro Flame furnace . That said, if I was regularly camping at temps below zero I think the 16,000 BTU (12,160 output) would be a good bet or I'd be supplementing with a Mr. Heater portable unit. The extra BTU's would be great to get the trailer up to temperature when everything is cold. I would ask Reace if he would install a 16,000 in a 21. It doesn't seem unreasonable. I'm not sure about the new heaters but the old ones are the same size casing with only small part changes to go higher BTU so it appears they could be swapped out pretty easily by an owner.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

The Escape 19 (extra insulation, regular windows) stays heated well at pretty cold temps with the stock 12,000 BTU input (9,160 output) Atwood Hydro Flame furnace . That said, if I was regularly camping at temps below zero I think the 16,000 BTU (12,160 output) would be a good bet or I'd be supplementing with a Mr. Heater portable unit. The extra BTU's would be great to get the trailer up to temperature when everything is cold. I would ask Reace if he would install a 16,000 in a 21. It doesn't seem unreasonable. I'm not sure about the new heaters but the old ones are the same size casing with only small part changes to go higher BTU so it appears they could be swapped out pretty easily by an owner.

The reasoning makes sense to me, but there is one issue...
Based on the installation manual, the front grill does not provide sufficient discharge area for furnaces with more than 12,000 BTU (input) rating, so Escape's current installation is not compatible with the higher-output models... even though they do have the same package size.

You could swap the stock furnace out for a higher-output model, and the "16" model would fit, but it wouldn't be - according to the manufacturer - an acceptable installation unless you added at least one discharge duct. My guess is that the heat exchanger would run too hot; hopefully it would shutdown due to a protective high-temperature switch before burning anything up that isn't supposed to burn.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

The reasoning makes sense to me, but there is one issue...
Based on the installation manual, the front grill does not provide sufficient discharge area for furnaces with more than 12,000 BTU (input) rating, so Escape's current installation is not compatible with the higher-output models... even though they do have the same package size.

You could swap the stock furnace out for a higher-output model, and the "16" model would fit, but it wouldn't be - according to the manufacturer - an acceptable installation unless you added at least one discharge duct. My guess is that the heat exchanger would run too hot; hopefully it would shutdown due to a protective high-temperature switch before burning anything up that isn't supposed to burn.

Brian, granted the instructions aren't the clearest but I'm not seeing the requirement to add a side duct to the 16,000 BTU model. It appears to be an optional configuration. Just so we are on the same page I'm referring to the Atwood Hydro Flame 7900-II / 8000-II Series Furnace Technical Installation Manual.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Brian, granted the instructions aren't the clearest but I'm not seeing the requirement to add a side duct to the 16,000 BTU model. It appears to be an optional configuration. Just so we are on the same page I'm referring to the Atwood Hydro Flame 7900-II / 8000-II Series Furnace Technical Installation Manual.

No, that's the furnace that Escape used until Atwood discontinued it. The new one is the AF Series:

Literature number 31970
hydro flame™
AF Series Furnaces Models
AFSAD12,
AFSD12, AFSD16, AFSD20
Technical Installation Manual

It's available online from American RV Company (online availability of information directly from Atwood / Dometic is spotty).
The one in an Escape is the AFSAD12... the 12,000 BTU/hr (input) size, in the version with lower fan power (34 watts instead of 41 watts), to be used without ducting.

There is clearly a requirement for 24 square inches of discharge ducts (under Ducting Options on page 5) for versions other than the front-discharge-only AFSAD variant, and the 5-inch front outlet duct by itself is not that large.... however, looking at the manual again, Tale 2 also offers "Front Only no Side Ducts" as an option for all models. I suppose the front outlet must be close enough (although 18% undersized), and a 16K variant wouldn't cook itself, but it doesn't seem like a good way to handle that much heat. It would certainly be easier than adding ducting.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

No, that's the furnace that Escape used until Atwood discontinued it. The new one is the AF Series:

Literature number 31970
hydro flame™
AF Series Furnaces Models
AFSAD12,
AFSD12, AFSD16, AFSD20
Technical Installation Manual

It's available online from American RV Company (online availability of information directly from Atwood / Dometic is spotty).
The one in an Escape is the AFSAD12... the 12,000 BTU/hr (input) size, in the version with lower fan power (34 watts instead of 41 watts), to be used without ducting.

There is clearly a requirement for 24 square inches of discharge ducts (under Ducting Options on page 5) for versions other than the front-discharge-only AFSAD variant, and the 5-inch front outlet duct by itself is not that large.... however, looking at the manual again, Tale 2 also offers "Front Only no Side Ducts" as an option for all models. I suppose the front outlet must be close enough (although 18% undersized), and a 16K variant wouldn't cook itself, but it doesn't seem like a good way to handle that much heat. It would certainly be easier than adding ducting.

Sorry I thought I was clear I was talking about the old furnace. I was uncertain of the newer model Escape now uses. So now that we are on the same page if the newer AFDS16 needed one duct out the side it looks like it could possibly be brought out the side of the cabinet towards the bed on a 21. Harder on a 19 because of its position in the trailer. Thoughts?

[cpaharley2008]

Originally Posted by Iowa Dave

We used to say about stock cars and the cars at the Marion County fairgrounds in Knoxville, Iowa, "They run the very best, just before they blow." If that was coming out of turn 4 on the last lap the leader's cushion would shrink pretty fast in coast gear. My driver was Jerry Blundy out of Illinois. I did like Joey Saldana too. In USAC cars, nobody ran harder than Wisconsin's Dick Trickle. And what about the Howard Langton Offenhauser Midgets out of my home town, Cedar Rapids Iowa. Nothing like rubber on black gumbo on an 88 degree July night.
Dave

Some colorful names there Dave.....

[cpaharley2008]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Sorry I thought I was clear I was talking about the old furnace. I was uncertain of the newer model Escape now uses. So now that we are on the same page if the newer AFDS16 needed one duct out the side it looks like it could possibly be brought out the side of the cabinet towards the bed on a 21. Harder on a 19 because of its position in the trailer. Thoughts?

I'm toying with the idea of a side duct in my new 19, into the bath area. In my old E21 I installed an auxiliary electric heater in the side wall under the bed, facing the cubbies. With Escapes new bathroom door allowing air over and under now, the bath was quite comfortable on cod mornings. Remember my heater in my 21 was at the rear dinette, another reason for the auxiliary heater.

Bathrooms were always cold in the older Escapes, in my first 19 I installed a duct in the door. ETI then started trimming the door smaller to allow air in/out the bath. Later with the Atwood change they moved the furnace in the 21 to amidships which made it more comfortable inside. Now I'm hoping to install a direct vent in the bath wall. It is on my list.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Now I'm hoping to install a direct vent in the bath wall. It is on my list.

Jim, will you need to replace what I presume is the new Atwood AFSAD12 (non-ducted) with one of the AFSD## models with the higher fan static and the knockouts for ducting options? Available in 12k, 16k and 20k BTU capacities with the same casing size.

[rbryan4]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Jim, will you need to replace what I presume is the new Atwood AFSAD12 (non-ducted) with one of the AFSD## models with the higher fan static and the knockouts for ducting options? Available in 12k, 16k and 20k BTU capacities with the same casing size.

I would definitely not do that. Whatever benefit you get from the higher BTUs and fan speed would probably be offset by higher noise levels when running. The stock AFSAD12 is quieter than my Everest II. To me, that's huge, especially when you're trying to sleep.

[J Mac]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

The furnace has several safety steps which involve purging the line and checking for proper airflow. All this is done before ignition and heat.

could you please list the 'several safety steps' that should be done prior to ignition and heat (for the original poster as well as all of us).

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by rbryan4

I would definitely not do that. Whatever benefit you get from the higher BTUs and fan speed would probably be offset by higher noise levels when running. The stock AFSAD12 is quieter than my Everest II. To me, that's huge, especially when you're trying to sleep.

If it's 20 below zero and your sitting in a cold trailer waiting for it to warm up , noise is the least of your worries plus with a full face stocking cap on you can't hear anyway.

The issue we have is that we leave our home in the cold (27 below) and our first stop is in the cold (17 below zero)
When we stop after the first / second day of driving, we are trying to bring our trailer from ambient up to a temp where we can eat our dinner and get some sleep . This warm up process has taken 3 to 4 hours in some cases and we could still see our breath in parts of the trailer.
The heater in our Old Scamp and the furnace in a new 21ft Escape have approx the same BTU output but the Escape has a 35 % larger interior volume.
This is NOT a criticism of Escape and I am sure the Escape's furnace is adequate for its' intended / stated purpose.
I assumed since many Escape owners live in Canada or the Northern US that some had run into this problem when heading south in the winter .
Since the size of the 12,000 btu furnace and the 16,000 btu furnace are identical , the installation is the same and the cost difference is minor , I thought it might be an option to explore.
Just trying to avoid sitting in my warm truck at the end of a day of driving waiting hours for my trailer to warm up.

[Jim Bennett]

I would bet the folks camping in their Escape at -20° is less than 1/2 of 1%. We have camped at -5°C, but would not go much lower. Maybe with the newer insulation and windows condensation would not be as much of an issue, and we could push a bit lower. Even at these temps our 19 warmed up quickly, though the bed takes a bit of under-cover dancing to warm up, but once it does it's so nice.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

I would bet the folks camping in their Escape at -20° is less than 1/2 of 1%. We have camped at -5°C, but would not go much lower. Maybe with the newer insulation and windows condensation would not be as much of an issue, and we could push a bit lower. Even at these temps our 19 warmed up quickly, though the bed takes a bit of under-cover dancing to warm up, but once it does it's so nice.

Jim , I agree that probably for 99.9% of Escape owners this is not an issue but we have run into this problem every year heading to and from when traveling South in the winter. We haven't seen anything as warm as -5C in the last 2 weeks and probably won't in the next 2 weeks.
At 17 below zero the mattress freezes to the outside wall at night and dancing does little to help plus our shoes froze to the floor.

[Donna D.]

Is there an issue with staying at a site with electricity and supplementing the 12,000 btu furnace with a cube heater? What am I missing?

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Donna D.

Is there an issue with staying at a site with electricity and supplementing the 12,000 btu furnace with a cube heater? What am I missing?

NO , we have done that on several occasions , ran both the furnace and the strip heater in the A/C and it worked well in our 17 ft trailer . The problem is that most of the campgrounds in the North , whether public or private are shut down in the winter . Finding one that is open , plowed out and has electricity is not always easy or possible.
Since we can't count on getting a site with electricity , we have to rely solely on our propane furnace .
I have tied up enough time and space on this forum with this question / subject , so I will just have to figure it out myself and use my own best guess .

Thanks

[Jim Bennett]

I love using an electric heater when 120V is available, this is why I am building one in to the steps on the 5.0, but in past years, it seems when camping in colder weather, we are mostly off the grid. This will likely change some in years to come.

[Donna D.]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

The problem is that most of the campgrounds in the North , whether public or private are shut down in the winter . Finding one that is open , plowed out and has electricity is not always easy or possible.

Dang, I didn't even think about that. Forgetting about the weather in other parts of the country happens when rain is our issue here in the Pacific NorthWET. Few campground shut down completely, some close loops due to falling tree limbs, etc during storms. And a few others will turn off the water. But electricity is usually always available. I wish you well in your decision

[float5]

I believe that Escape has specifically said that their trailers are not four-season. Anyone who needs four-season should get a Bigfoot or a stick.

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by float5

I believe that Escape has specifically said that their trailers are not four-season. Anyone who needs four-season should get a Bigfoot or a stick.

A Bigfoot would work better, but not a lot of stick-built that would fit the bill. For starters, dual glazed windows are not even an option on the vast majority of them.

[float5]

There are some sticks that are specifically claimed by the company to be four-season. I know of someone who was getting one instead of an Escape because of that.