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Old 01-06-2017, 10:06 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by steve dunham View Post
The 16 ft Scamp and the 16/17 ft Casita both come with a 16,000 btu imput furnace. The Escape 21 comes with a 12,000 btu imput furnace.
Assuming a Standard Escape 21 ( Without the insulation ,thermal window option ) , down to what outside temp will the Escape furnace maintain a 70 deg F interior temperature ?.
I will admit that my 16,000 btu Casita furnace,seems like overkill most of the time but when camping at temps well below zero not so much so.
My father had a 1999 Scamp 16 that had a 12,000 BTU input furnace. It appears they switched to the NT-16SE when Suburban stopped making the NT-12SE furnace. The Escape 19 (extra insulation, regular windows) stays heated well at pretty cold temps with the stock 12,000 BTU input (9,160 output) Atwood Hydro Flame furnace . That said, if I was regularly camping at temps below zero I think the 16,000 BTU (12,160 output) would be a good bet or I'd be supplementing with a Mr. Heater portable unit. The extra BTU's would be great to get the trailer up to temperature when everything is cold. I would ask Reace if he would install a 16,000 in a 21. It doesn't seem unreasonable. I'm not sure about the new heaters but the old ones are the same size casing with only small part changes to go higher BTU so it appears they could be swapped out pretty easily by an owner.
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Old 01-06-2017, 10:57 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by rubicon327 View Post
The Escape 19 (extra insulation, regular windows) stays heated well at pretty cold temps with the stock 12,000 BTU input (9,160 output) Atwood Hydro Flame furnace . That said, if I was regularly camping at temps below zero I think the 16,000 BTU (12,160 output) would be a good bet or I'd be supplementing with a Mr. Heater portable unit. The extra BTU's would be great to get the trailer up to temperature when everything is cold. I would ask Reace if he would install a 16,000 in a 21. It doesn't seem unreasonable. I'm not sure about the new heaters but the old ones are the same size casing with only small part changes to go higher BTU so it appears they could be swapped out pretty easily by an owner.
The reasoning makes sense to me, but there is one issue...
Based on the installation manual, the front grill does not provide sufficient discharge area for furnaces with more than 12,000 BTU (input) rating, so Escape's current installation is not compatible with the higher-output models... even though they do have the same package size.

You could swap the stock furnace out for a higher-output model, and the "16" model would fit, but it wouldn't be - according to the manufacturer - an acceptable installation unless you added at least one discharge duct. My guess is that the heat exchanger would run too hot; hopefully it would shutdown due to a protective high-temperature switch before burning anything up that isn't supposed to burn.
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Old 01-06-2017, 11:51 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
The reasoning makes sense to me, but there is one issue...
Based on the installation manual, the front grill does not provide sufficient discharge area for furnaces with more than 12,000 BTU (input) rating, so Escape's current installation is not compatible with the higher-output models... even though they do have the same package size.

You could swap the stock furnace out for a higher-output model, and the "16" model would fit, but it wouldn't be - according to the manufacturer - an acceptable installation unless you added at least one discharge duct. My guess is that the heat exchanger would run too hot; hopefully it would shutdown due to a protective high-temperature switch before burning anything up that isn't supposed to burn.
Brian, granted the instructions aren't the clearest but I'm not seeing the requirement to add a side duct to the 16,000 BTU model. It appears to be an optional configuration. Just so we are on the same page I'm referring to the Atwood Hydro Flame 7900-II / 8000-II Series Furnace Technical Installation Manual.
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Old 01-07-2017, 01:16 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by rubicon327 View Post
Brian, granted the instructions aren't the clearest but I'm not seeing the requirement to add a side duct to the 16,000 BTU model. It appears to be an optional configuration. Just so we are on the same page I'm referring to the Atwood Hydro Flame 7900-II / 8000-II Series Furnace Technical Installation Manual.
No, that's the furnace that Escape used until Atwood discontinued it. The new one is the AF Series:
Literature number 31970
hydro flame™
AF Series Furnaces Models
AFSAD12,
AFSD12, AFSD16, AFSD20
Technical Installation Manual
It's available online from American RV Company (online availability of information directly from Atwood / Dometic is spotty).
The one in an Escape is the AFSAD12... the 12,000 BTU/hr (input) size, in the version with lower fan power (34 watts instead of 41 watts), to be used without ducting.

There is clearly a requirement for 24 square inches of discharge ducts (under Ducting Options on page 5) for versions other than the front-discharge-only AFSAD variant, and the 5-inch front outlet duct by itself is not that large.... however, looking at the manual again, Tale 2 also offers "Front Only no Side Ducts" as an option for all models. I suppose the front outlet must be close enough (although 18% undersized), and a 16K variant wouldn't cook itself, but it doesn't seem like a good way to handle that much heat. It would certainly be easier than adding ducting.
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Old 01-07-2017, 03:34 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
No, that's the furnace that Escape used until Atwood discontinued it. The new one is the AF Series:
Literature number 31970
hydro flame™
AF Series Furnaces Models
AFSAD12,
AFSD12, AFSD16, AFSD20
Technical Installation Manual
It's available online from American RV Company (online availability of information directly from Atwood / Dometic is spotty).
The one in an Escape is the AFSAD12... the 12,000 BTU/hr (input) size, in the version with lower fan power (34 watts instead of 41 watts), to be used without ducting.

There is clearly a requirement for 24 square inches of discharge ducts (under Ducting Options on page 5) for versions other than the front-discharge-only AFSAD variant, and the 5-inch front outlet duct by itself is not that large.... however, looking at the manual again, Tale 2 also offers "Front Only no Side Ducts" as an option for all models. I suppose the front outlet must be close enough (although 18% undersized), and a 16K variant wouldn't cook itself, but it doesn't seem like a good way to handle that much heat. It would certainly be easier than adding ducting.
Sorry I thought I was clear I was talking about the old furnace. I was uncertain of the newer model Escape now uses. So now that we are on the same page if the newer AFDS16 needed one duct out the side it looks like it could possibly be brought out the side of the cabinet towards the bed on a 21. Harder on a 19 because of its position in the trailer. Thoughts?
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Old 01-07-2017, 05:37 AM   #26
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Old 01-07-2017, 05:45 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by rubicon327 View Post
Sorry I thought I was clear I was talking about the old furnace. I was uncertain of the newer model Escape now uses. So now that we are on the same page if the newer AFDS16 needed one duct out the side it looks like it could possibly be brought out the side of the cabinet towards the bed on a 21. Harder on a 19 because of its position in the trailer. Thoughts?
I'm toying with the idea of a side duct in my new 19, into the bath area. In my old E21 I installed an auxiliary electric heater in the side wall under the bed, facing the cubbies. With Escapes new bathroom door allowing air over and under now, the bath was quite comfortable on cod mornings. Remember my heater in my 21 was at the rear dinette, another reason for the auxiliary heater.

Bathrooms were always cold in the older Escapes, in my first 19 I installed a duct in the door. ETI then started trimming the door smaller to allow air in/out the bath. Later with the Atwood change they moved the furnace in the 21 to amidships which made it more comfortable inside. Now I'm hoping to install a direct vent in the bath wall. It is on my list.
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Old 01-07-2017, 08:19 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
Now I'm hoping to install a direct vent in the bath wall. It is on my list.
Jim, will you need to replace what I presume is the new Atwood AFSAD12 (non-ducted) with one of the AFSD## models with the higher fan static and the knockouts for ducting options? Available in 12k, 16k and 20k BTU capacities with the same casing size.
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Old 01-07-2017, 09:45 AM   #29
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Jim, will you need to replace what I presume is the new Atwood AFSAD12 (non-ducted) with one of the AFSD## models with the higher fan static and the knockouts for ducting options? Available in 12k, 16k and 20k BTU capacities with the same casing size.
I would definitely not do that. Whatever benefit you get from the higher BTUs and fan speed would probably be offset by higher noise levels when running. The stock AFSAD12 is quieter than my Everest II. To me, that's huge, especially when you're trying to sleep.
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Old 01-07-2017, 10:15 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
The furnace has several safety steps which involve purging the line and checking for proper airflow. All this is done before ignition and heat.
could you please list the 'several safety steps' that should be done prior to ignition and heat (for the original poster as well as all of us).
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