general solar and batteries questions: future build

[John in Santa Cruz]

dual alternators are generally found on diesels, and the 2nd alternator is generally wired to the 'house' systems with their own batteries etc, like my kids ambulance camper conversion (surplus ambulance he's turning into a camper).

to get full rated output of a vehicle alternator, you typically need to increase the RPM above idle, like his ambulance has an idle booster knob you pull and it idles at 1000 rpm instead of 600 rpm. this, of course, increases fuel consumption.


so when you say 1200 watts, its more like electrical power tools, not electronics (computers, audio/video, etc) ? or is this something like a mobile recording studio ?

I know when I've run a 2000VA inverter generator 8-10 hours/day, I've gone through 5G of gas in about 3 days, and propane has somewhat less energy per gallon than gasoline, so I'd expect the typical 20 lb/4.5 gallon propane bottle to last even less time.

[Brian B-P]

Although the existing generator is converted to propane, I assume it would not be fueled by propane when carried with the motorhome (if resorting to that) - why carry propane for just the generator? Is the van to be gasoline or diesel? The Transit is available either way.

[Brian B-P]

There isn't a lot of space under the hood of a Transit, so I doubt that a second alternator is practical (unless perhaps air conditioning is omitted, but not many people would do that)... especially in a new (under warranty) vehicle. Ford offers dual batteries for the Transit (for users with high electrical demands), but not dual alternators.

[Ron in BC]

I agree that adding a second alternator into a space that very likely was never designed for another item to be placed in there could open up a new can of worms.

Looks to me like the Balmar unit might be the best way to go.

http://www.balmar.net/wp-content/upl...h-1024x729.jpg

Ron

[John in Santa Cruz]

so no furnace in this van? my kid's Vanagon Westfalia has a tiny propane furnace, along with a propane stove, and its *tiny* compared with a Transit.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

so no furnace in this van? my kid's Vanagon Westfalia has a tiny propane furnace, along with a propane stove, and its *tiny* compared with a Transit.

The lack of propane does not necessarily imply that there is no furnace. There is at least one gasoline-fueled forced-air heater (furnace) available - the Webasto Air Top 2000 STC - and there are lots of diesel-fueled air and water (for circulating systems) heaters used in trucks and expedition campers. Domestic water heating and cooking are greater challenges without propane than space heating, and gasoline is more limiting than diesel for these purposes.

These fuel issues don't matter so much in trailers, where most people are happy to just carry propane and wouldn't consider diesel, let alone gasoline.

[paulk]

The Roadtrek E-Trek is an almost perfect match to what you want. It comes with 2 alternators, ridiculous battery banks (1600 amp-hours of lithium batteries with the "Warp Core" package). The underhood alternator by itself can supply 3,360W and the inverter is 5,000W. When the battery gets low the vehicle turns itself on and starts charging automatically. 600 watts of solar on the roof, although as we've covered already that won't come anywhere close to filling your batteries under that load.

It's a pricy package, probably up in the 200k range once you're put in all your options, but that's the kind of $$ you're talking about for boondocking with that kind of power. I think a lot of people underestimate the expense and effort of building your own. I doubt you could make anything as functional for the same price as Roadtrek unless you did most of it yourself, and even then it wouldn't likely include things like fiberglass shower enclosures. Class Bs are complicated and have lots of competing limitations for space, which means a company that makes lots of mistakes in early designs have the advantage. Find a video for the undercarriage of a RoadTrek to see what I mean. They use custom shaped water tanks to perfectly fit the odd spaces under the vans.

Personally, I'd buy an Escape for 30k USD (oh, actually, I did!) and plan to use hook up sites. Although, I do have to say that the class Bs are very nice packages, and someday we may end up in one too.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

Looks to me like the Balmar unit might be the best way to go.

http://www.balmar.net/wp-content/upl...h-1024x729.jpg

That's an interesting approach: run the alternator to suit the coach battery, and supply the chassis battery through a secondary charger.

One can probably get away with that in a boat, but in a current or recent van, I would be concerned that the charging system is likely highly integrated with other vehicle controls, and might not like being replaced with a different charging control system.

A DC-to-DC charger for the coach battery would take the opposite approach, leaving the vehicle's system alone and treating the coach battery as secondary, with voltage boosting as required to suit the coach battery and its state of charge.

[paulk]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

A DC-to-DC charger for the coach battery would take the opposite approach, leaving the vehicle's system alone and treating the coach battery as secondary, with voltage boosting as required to suit the coach battery and its state of charge.

Redarc has a 40 amp DC-DC charging model, but that's going to take hours to re-charge these batteries based on that load. Someone else might have a higher current model.. I haven't looked. A second alternator could supply more power, but from the comments above I guess that's not an option on this van.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by paulk

Redarc has a 40 amp DC-DC charging model, but that's going to take hours to re-charge these batteries based on that load. Someone else might have a higher current model.. I haven't looked.

I agree - higher current capacity is needed.

They come larger; example:
Sterling Power BBW12120 120amp Battery to Battery Charger 12V to 12V
I don't know anything about this manufacturer... it's just an example.

Originally Posted by paulk

A second alternator could supply more power, but from the comments above I guess that's not an option on this van.

With a 250-amp alternator (3 kW), I don't see any need for a second alternator.

[Rossue]

If I was going to do this I would seek out a wise forum member who plans doing this after previously installing a compressor fridge with 4 AGM batteries plus a means to step up DC charging from tug-trailer.

[Losangeles]

Thanks all for the many ideas and thoughts. :-)

I am realizing that a huge battery bank and tons of solar is overkill and would be very expensive

I can just have a hitch mounted steel box for a Honda 2200.

and when i want to run the generator, (i’d be in a place what would not disturb others) .. I would just use a 50’ extension cable and have it far away.


and to clarify - I would not do the interior build and conversion myself. I’ll use Sportsmobile Fresno, or similar. I now have a bunch of price estimates. Been working on this for about a year.


I would likely run my generator on gasoline. It can run on either propane or gasoline. The conversion was a 2 way kit. Works great.

I would get a gas transit.

The van would have an Espar air heater (furnace) put in it. with thermostat. Gasoline. Yes they are available.

Info here if you are curious
https://www.fordtransitusaforum.com/...as-engine.html


We are not buying a Roadtrek E Trek or any “already built” van. We have very specific needs that ready made ones don’t cover… plus the ready made ones are usually crazy expensive, and tend to lack things we want. No thanks. :-)

There are many, many experienced builders around…. for example Sportsmobile have been around a long time, and come with a 5 year very inclusive warranty.

Thanks

John

[sclifrickson]

Originally Posted by Rossue

If I was going to do this I would seek out a wise forum member who plans doing this after previously installing a compressor fridge with 4 AGM batteries plus a means to step up DC charging from tug-trailer.

Hi, Ross! Long time no see! Good suggestion, nudge nudge, wink wink [emoji6]

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Losangeles

... and to clarify - I would not do the interior build and conversion myself. I’ll use Sportsmobile Fresno, or similar.
...
We are not buying a Roadtrek E Trek or any “already built” van. We have very specific needs that ready made ones don’t cover… plus the ready made ones are usually crazy expensive, and tend to lack things we want.

That sounds even more expensive than a ready-made conversion, but it looks like Sportsmobile has the process of Planning and Ordering a semi-custom conversion down. With standard components, it looks much more reasonable than a fully custom build.

What do you think Reace's reaction would be if someone suggested this as an Escape customization option?

[paulk]

Sportsmobile has an excellent reputation and I would trust them to build a great semi-custom class B. Before I found Escape I was looking primarily into class Bs. The only other company I found that looked better for customized RVs was Advanced RV ( https://advanced-rv.com ), but I get the sense they are a lot more expensive. There are indeed a lot of other companies doing conversions. I haven't done an exhaustive comparison, but a lot of the other conversion jobs I saw seemed to have glaring issues, especially when it came to bathrooms, plumbing, or electrical. Keep both eyes open before getting into any deal.

Designing your own RV to suit your needs I'm sure is a lot of fun. Enjoy the voyage.

[Losangeles]

In my experience - ready-made conversions are really over priced and not well made.

As an example - we rented a 2015 Airstream Class B - had about 50k miles on it - almost all by one owner, and NOT a rental 'till recently..... about $160,000 to buy new... and while the glossy surfaces looked nice on the surface...... the construction was laughably bad, and it was falling apart, and had tons of crazy squeaks and rattles.

Currently the way Sportsmobile builds is much, much more solid, and free of squeaks and rattles, and is what I would say is a higher quality than the Airstream, and is quite a bit less than the $160,000. Plus you get what you want, and omit what you dont want, to save $.

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

That sounds even more expensive than a ready-made conversion, but it looks like Sportsmobile has the process of Planning and Ordering a semi-custom conversion down. With standard components, it looks much more reasonable than a fully custom build.

What do you think Reace's reaction would be if someone suggested this as an Escape customization option?

[John in Santa Cruz]

my friend has a Sportsmobile E350 stretch he ordered new some years back (thinking 10 years ago?). he's had issues with the Ford 6.0L diesel engine but otherwise its been rock solid, and the Sportsmobile camper build quality is very nice. He too had specific requirements. they didn't want any sort of stove or water system on board, as they are used to backpacking and portal camping with their kayaks.

[Brian B-P]

Just as an Escape is built better (in at least some ways) than an Airstream trailer but at a fraction of the Airstream price, other Class B's appear to be built decently and sell for much less than US$160K (commonly half of that). For instance, 40% of the Roadtrek models are under US$100K. I suspect that tens of thousands of dollars of the Airstream price is for the name badge.

Regardless of comparative pricing, Sportmobile's Design Your Own feature looks great.

[paulk]

Originally Posted by Losangeles

In my experience - ready-made conversions are really over priced and not well made.

I've never heard of an industry where custom or semi-custom jobs were cheaper than standardized models of equivalent quality and features. I would be amazed if class B RVs were any different. Sure, if you want higher quality, or don't want some features that come in most standard builds, or want something unusual, then custom can be the right choice. In an apples to apples comparison though, standard builds should almost always be less $$ than custom, IMHO.

Originally Posted by Losangeles

As an example - we rented a 2015 Airstream Class B - had about 50k miles on it - almost all by one owner, and NOT a rental 'till recently..... about $160,000 to buy new... and while the glossy surfaces looked nice on the surface...... the construction was laughably bad, and it was falling apart, and had tons of crazy squeaks and rattles.

I'm in agreement that Airstream is way overpriced and not as high quality. I've seen their class B in person and I wasn't impressed either. In my opinion RoadTrek is better, and for less $ than Airstream.

Originally Posted by Losangeles

Currently the way Sportsmobile builds is much, much more solid, and free of squeaks and rattles, and is what I would say is a higher quality than the Airstream, and is quite a bit less than the $160,000. Plus you get what you want, and omit what you dont want, to save $.

The E-Trek model that I quoted above has a list price of 162k before additional options or tax, but it's a very special all electric & diesel (no propane) model with many expensive electrical and diesel features already included. You won't find those things in the base Airstream or Sportsmobile. I'm not saying they couldn't add them, but then the price would go up. The comparable RoadTrek models to the Airstream are a lot less expensive as Brian mentions.

I'm not really sure how Airstream keeps chugging along with their rather overpriced offerings, but they must be doing something right because they've been around forever and a lot more people know about them than the smaller players, like Escape.

[Losangeles]

Originally Posted by paulk

I've never heard of an industry where custom or semi-custom jobs were cheaper than standardized models of equivalent quality and features. I would be amazed if class B RVs were any different. Sure, if you want higher quality, or don't want some features that come in most standard builds, or want something unusual, then custom can be the right choice. In an apples to apples comparison though, standard builds should almost always be less $$ than custom, IMHO......

To clarify

I have been researching this for over a year. I have a bunch of cost estimates from both custom, semi-custom and also standardized models.

the van we want (layout, features) does not exist in a standardized model.

the van we will have built semi-custom will be cheaper than any vaguely similar standardized model, and also a higher quality.

If you want more info... i suggest you get some price estimates and do some research yourself.

I'm glad my findings, for ourselves, amaze you.

My thread here is about finding out more about solar and batteries.

;-)