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Old 06-02-2016, 11:59 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by float5 View Post
I saw an explanation on this that the circuit breakers are basically to protect equipment and the GFCIs are basically to protect people and therefore, the GFCIs will trip far more quickly.

In other words, GFCIs are far more sensitive to be able to trip at much lower levels and will trip easily...
Yes, a GFCI detects and reacts to a much lower current, but it's current in an entirely different place - there's no direct relationship.
  • The circuit breaker reacts to excessive current flowing in the current on the normal path (the hot and neutral wires) where current is supposed to flow; in an Escape trailer this is a few to 30 amps, depending on the circuit.
  • The Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter reacts to any current taking a path it is not supposed to take (by comparing the current in the wires where it is supposed to flow); this is a few milliamps (thousands of one amp).
The GFCI is tripping in reaction to current a thousand times smaller, but a different current. Which feature trips (overcurrent circuit breaker or GGCI) depends on what is wrong, not sensitivity.

I just stumbled across a good explanation from NEMA of GFCIs, why they exist, and how they work: Understanding GFCIs

Quote:
Originally Posted by float5 View Post
I have not seen where the GFCI is located that is for the main power cord. Have others seen this?
I doubt there is a GFCI for the main power feed; if there were one, it should be at the campsite's receptacle or the campground's circuit breaker for that circuit. A GGCI can be built into a circuit breaker that goes into a panel, but I haven't seen one of these used in an Escape and wouldn't expect it. All GFCIs could be in the breakers for the circuits which are protected, but putting them in the first receptacle in each circuit (as needed) makes them a lot more accessible for testing and resetting.
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Old 06-03-2016, 12:00 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by float5 View Post
Escape told us that when both are on, it will go to the electric first. Not sure what that means, whether both would be on simultaneously or not.
With all due respect to Escape this does not appear to be true. From the Suburban manual there are separate combination thermostat/high limit assemblies for propane and electric operation naturally, but they are set the same. Thermostats maintain 130F (non-adjustable), manual reset high limits are triggered at 180F. Safety relief valve would open at 210F or 150 psi. Gas and electric can operate simultaneously and would simply heat the water faster to the 130F set point. Location on the tank looks identical and any bias in the set points would be minimal and unintended.

The Hott Rod units do have the same principle with a combination adjustable thermostat (preset to 120F) and a manual reset high limit at 170F. I think the biggest risk with these units is the reliance on proper adherence of the thermostat/high limit assembly onto the tank (with a bonding tape and silicone). If the thermostat/high limit assembly falls off you would be running wild and would be heating continuously with only the heater safety relief valve left to open.
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Old 06-03-2016, 12:23 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by float5 View Post
I saw an explanation on this that the circuit breakers are basically to protect equipment and the GFCIs are basically to protect people and therefore, the GFCIs will trip far more quickly.

In other words, GFCIs are far more sensitive to be able to trip at much lower levels and will trip easily.

They also said that there can be ghost GFCIs tripping that is due to their ability to trip at such low levels.

They mention that 90% of the reasons for tripping are worn connections and the like, which was apparently the case above.

I thought that I had run the microwave too long with the inverter but guess not from your explanation. And, in the other case, do not remember what was going on except that we had no electric at an outlet until we finally were able to reset the outside GFCI. At least, that is what we thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by float5 View Post
I have not seen where the GFCI is located that is for the main power cord. Have others seen this?

Thank you for bringing this up. Some of us have learned something.
Electricity takes the path of least resistance ..
The water heater if it has an electric element is required to be intentionally grounded through an equipment grounding conductor.
If the water heater is adequately grounded and the trailer frame is adequately grounded the path of least resistance is back to the main service or the trailer pedestal .If the water heater element fails , the leakage current should be carried on the equipment grounding conductor. If you get a shock off the trailer frame because the water heater element failed then your water heater and trailer are not properly grounded . Adding GFCI protection to protect your trailer does not eliminate the requirement to adequately ground the trailer or the water heater . GFCI's are not a replacement for or a sustitute for proper grounding. GFCI are a useful safety device but they do not prevent the possibility of electrical shock or harm or damage under every possible scenario.
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Old 06-03-2016, 12:50 AM   #54
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If you get a shock off the trailer frame because the water heater element failed then your water heater and trailer are not properly grounded. Adding GFCI protection to protect your trailer does not eliminate the requirement to adequately ground the trailer or the water heater.
Steve thank you for reiterating this. I have tried to convey that the shock was due to both the water heater element failure hot to ground AND an extension cord with a bad ground plug.
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Old 06-03-2016, 12:57 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by rubicon327 View Post
Steve thank you for reiterating this. I have tried to convey that the shock was due to both the water heater element failure hot to ground AND an extension cord with a bad ground plug.
And does anyone know if they are coming out of the factory properly grounded. And how to see if they are.
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Old 06-03-2016, 01:08 AM   #56
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I feel better about the propane only choice. We had the two way on the 05 17b but it was burned out during po's reign. Changed the element which was a bit of a chore, still didn't work. Checked all the obvious things still didn't work. Decided I liked how it worked on propane so gave up on getting it to ever work on electric. Made it an easy item to bypass on the build sheet for the 19.
Just glad the Dad was OK and didn't get a worse shock.
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Old 06-03-2016, 01:22 AM   #57
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And does anyone know if they are coming out of the factory properly grounded. And how to see if they are.
This is not a factory issue. The Escape trailer electrical systems are built to high standards. I am sure the trailers and appliances are properly grounded. The failure of the water heater element was user error and just happened to fail in a "hot to ground" state based on my continuity test. The bad extension cord was used from the end of the factory cord to the house outlet using a 30 to 15 amp adapter. This was our fault for not inspecting and seeing the missing ground prong on our cord.
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Old 06-03-2016, 01:39 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by float5 View Post
And does anyone know if they are coming out of the factory properly grounded. And how to see if they are.
I haven't seen any indication of anything less than correct grounding practices in Escapes. To check, I would plug the trailer into a known good shore power outlet, and plug a basic receptacle tester into one of the trailer's outlets.
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Old 06-03-2016, 07:01 AM   #59
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E-2 on the optional surge protector is for an open ground.
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Old 06-03-2016, 08:00 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
Yes, a GFCI detects and reacts to a much lower current, but it's current in an entirely different place - there's no direct relationship.
  • The circuit breaker reacts to excessive current flowing in the current on the normal path (the hot and neutral wires) where current is supposed to flow; in an Escape trailer this is a few to 30 amps, depending on the circuit.
  • The Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter reacts to any current taking a path it is not supposed to take (by comparing the current in the wires where it is supposed to flow); this is a few milliamps (thousands of one amp).
The GFCI is tripping in reaction to current a thousand times smaller, but a different current. Which feature trips (overcurrent circuit breaker or GGCI) depends on what is wrong, not sensitivity.

I just stumbled across a good explanation from NEMA of GFCIs, why they exist, and how they work: Understanding GFCIs


I doubt there is a GFCI for the main power feed; if there were one, it should be at the campsite's receptacle or the campground's circuit breaker for that circuit. A GGCI can be built into a circuit breaker that goes into a panel, but I haven't seen one of these used in an Escape and wouldn't expect it. All GFCIs could be in the breakers for the circuits which are protected, but putting them in the first receptacle in each circuit (as needed) makes them a lot more accessible for testing and resetting.
GFCI are available in 15 ,20 ,30 amp , SP breakers. They are also available in 240 VAC versions for hot tubs etc.. I have seen 30 amp GFCI protected receptacles in campground pedestals
GFCI circuit breakers cost 4 times as much as a GFCI receptacle so it isn't hard to figure out which one most contractors choose to install .
Many inspectors prefer the GFCI receptacle installed at the point of usage. I have gone to many homes where the homeowner has removed the GFCI breaker and replaced it with a standard breaker because of nuisance tripping . The length and the way the circuit wiring is run can lead to false tripping due to capacitive coupling or induced spikes.
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