Really didn't see the need for electric on the water heater .
It's not needed, but then nothing in the trailer is needed - you can just heat water on the stove. For that matter, the entire trailer itself is an unnecessary luxury, since a tent works for camping.
While the heater works effectively on propane, electrical operation can be useful, too. I've found that at low temperatures propane supply (to anything in an RV, but especially the furnace) can be problematic and it can be helpful to get hot water - or at least prevent damage by freezing - without massive surges of propane supply; the heater is comparable to the furnace in propane flow rate. Electrical operation can also be a backup in case there is a problem with the water heater's propane burner. If propane supply is getting low, using shore power instead of propane to heat water can stretch out the supply
It should be noted that as far as I can tell the optional Progressive Industries surge protection devices inside the trailer do not appear to protect from ground faults in the trailer - only surge and other source power inlet conditions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermilye
The Progressive Industries HW30C does protect against open grounds between it and the power pedestal; From the Website: "Open Ground Protection:
If AC power has an open ground condition, the EMS will read an error code of E-2 and power will not be allowed to the RV."
It, and any other EMS that I'm familiar with cannot detect an open ground after its location...
The open ground comments make sense, but the first remark was about ground faults (power flowing in the ground conductor), which is the opposite of an open ground (lack of continuity in the ground conductor). It doesn't look like Progressive Industries claims any ground fault protection, but that makes sense since this is normally the role of a GFCI, which is typically integrated with the over-current protection.
It's not needed, but then nothing in the trailer is needed - you can just heat water on the stove. For that matter, the entire trailer itself is an unnecessary luxury, since a tent works for camping.
While the heater works effectively on propane, electrical operation can be useful, too. I've found that at low temperatures propane supply (to anything in an RV, but especially the furnace) can be problematic and it can be helpful to get hot water - or at least prevent damage by freezing - without massive surges of propane supply; the heater is comparable to the furnace in propane flow rate. Electrical operation can also be a backup in case there is a problem with the water heater's propane burner. If propane supply is getting low, using shore power instead of propane to heat water can stretch out the supply
Still think that money could be used elsewhere . Never in all my years had problems with propane . For heat it is always prudent to carry a little heater if you have hookups in stead of ,or a backup . The potential for damaging your water heater , electrical on , no water , is just not worth it . Pat
Still think that money could be used elsewhere . Never in all my years had problems with propane . For heat it is always prudent to carry a little heater if you have hookups in stead of ,or a backup . The potential for damaging your water heater , electrical on , no water , is just not worth it . Pat
Yeppers, you could get 2 or 3 nice bottles of Scotch for the difference.
Carrying a little electric heater (which I do too) for backup is very much akin to having electric on the water heater for the same reason. It too is much quieter than the propane option, and saves using up your propane too.
You will not damage the water heater, just burn out the easily replaceable and cheap element. After doing that, I added the convenient lit switch inside to eliminate this problem.
Our stick-built does not have the electric option, and we really missed it this past weekend in Osoyoos.
It is listed as an option, as it definitely is not for everyone. Like most options, it is not necessary, but certainly is nice when you can make use of it.
__________________
2017 Escape 5.0 TA
2015 Ford F150 Lariat 3.5L EcoBoost
2009 Escape 19 (previous)
“Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.” — Abraham Lincoln
Still think that money could be used elsewhere . Never in all my years had problems with propane . For heat it is always prudent to carry a little heater if you have hookups in stead of ,or a backup . The potential for damaging your water heater , electrical on , no water , is just not worth it . Pat
I agree that every option choice is a cost-benefit judgement.
Different people, in different locations, have different needs and concerns. I remember an interesting comment in a discussion of features that are standard but might be deleted for a credit because they were not valued: An Escape from B.C. comes with a furnace standard but air conditioning optional, while a Casita from Texas comes with air conditioning standard but a furnace optional. I live in Alberta, and the house furnace came on last night - yes, it's June. Near-freezing temperatures and resulting potential propane issues can occur at night for most of the year here, even when the days are gloriously warm and long.
Reports of damaging a heater with an electric element are rare, so I don't think it's a huge risk. A switch with an indicator (light) in the interior would certainly help reduce this risk, and I think it's bizarre that both major brands of RV water heater are routinely installed without them (by all RV manufacturers).
What happens to the water heater if it is run on propane with no water?
I'm always fascinated by the discussions that spawn from a given topic. I like the flexibility of the dual mode water heater, but I agree it may not be for everyone. The key take away I was aiming for was making owners aware of the potential electrical issues (and danger when not properly grounded) that can occur with a failed electric element. Please understand that we believe the trailer was purchased with this issue so we were starting from scratch trying to understand how the system is supposed to operate and troubleshooting the problems that the trailer was exhibiting, including my father being shocked on the stabilizer. Obviously being educated on how the system works is the best line of defense so problems can be avoided altogether. I have included a picture of the outside switch location since the exploded view I attached previously may not be the most conducive to understanding. Apologies to the veterans here that know their systems inside and out, but I'll reiterate that this switch, or breaker at power center must be OFF when the hot water tank is drained to avoid burning out the electric element.
What happens to the water heater if it is run on propane with no water?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaglo
My buddy did that. I just pressed the reset button, one of those black rubber buttons on the heater.
Good to know
It's interesting that the water heater manufacturer designed the appliance to shut down the propane burner before doing damage, but not the electric element.
My build sheet with 2-way Hot Water Tank say's below it...LED Indicator Switch for HW Tank. That is only for the propane?
Yes, only for propane. You go outside to move rocker switch for electric. Escape will not install a switch inside for electric but never found out if that is due to code or what.
__________________
Cathy. Floating Cloud
"Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air.... "
Emerson
Yes, only for propane. You go outside to move rocker switch for electric. Escape will not install a switch inside for electric but never found out if that is due to code or what.
It appears that Attwood has offered a dual switch option for years now, but Suburban does not appear to. Interestingly I did find an old image of what appears to be a Suburban dual mode switch though. For those that don't know, if you need a faster recovery rate you can use gas and electric simultaneously. Specs according to Suburban:
Still think that money could be used elsewhere . Never in all my years had problems with propane . For heat it is always prudent to carry a little heater if you have hookups in stead of ,or a backup . The potential for damaging your water heater , electrical on , no water , is just not worth it . Pat
The water heater is typically only ever damaged by someone at the beginning of the season when the tank is not filled first. We and many never empty the tank until winterizing so can't have that problem any time the whole season.
And if you have A/C and need it much, you would by necessity have hook-ups much of the time.
We never had to fill a propane tank because we had electric hook-ups as many do. Only makes sense to have electric if you are routinely or always at campgrounds and paying for it. People who primarily boondock are always using their propane. We have not. We expect to use the propane much more with this trailer but never had to deal with propane at all before.
__________________
Cathy. Floating Cloud
"Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air.... "
Emerson
It appears that Attwood has offered a dual switch option for years now, but Suburban does not appear to. Interestingly I did find an old image of what appears to be a Suburban dual mode switch though. For those that don't know, if you need a faster recovery rate you can use gas and electric simultaneously. Specs according to Suburban:
Does anyone know how the electric hot water conversion kits compare to the factory propane/electric water heater? I have the propane only unit, and was considering buying and installing a kit just to have that option available. The installation looks easy enough...
Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I think this is important for people to see. My father was shocked on the trailer scissor jack and the trailer was also discovered to trip house GFI outlet when plugging in trailer (shore power). I want to stress that despite what is seen on some Internet posts it is NOT normal or ok for a trailer to trip GFI outlets. Something is wrong! After some investigation it became evident that the hot water heater switch (outside on face of heater) was inadvertently left on when the tank was drained (possibly by previous owner). This lead to the element burning out. With the element disconnected from power I checked for continuity to the trailer frame from the element terminals. I had intermittent continuity which means that the element sheath had to have failed with a hot-ground fault and was the cause of the shock to my father. This was also coupled with a bad ground pin on the extension cord to the outlet so the trailer was not properly grounded. The water heater element fault is also what was causing the GFI outlet to then trip. It is interesting to note that while troubleshooting we learned the house GFI tripped even with the inside water heater breaker OFF and other circuits with large loads were operated (A/C or microwave). This is the GFI detecting the issue, but can lead one to believe the issue is on a circuit that it is not. Also note that the trailer operated fine on a regular non-GFI outlet because without a GFI the fault could not be detected.
If my father was better grounded he could have been killed. I want to stress again that trailers tripping GFI's is not normal. Keep this water heater element issue in mind and always inspect your cords for proper grounding and plug in to a properly wired and tested GFI protected outlet.
I am an idiot at electrical but from what you are saying, I take it that your father would not have been shocked had the element not burned out? That is definitely a very dangerous situation. Glad he is okay.
When you say it is not common to have the GFI tripping, it trips if you overload it turning on too many items, and that is common I believe and the reason, I guess, for the GFCI. And then it has to be reset. I am supposing that you are not saying that it does not have that function. We have tripped it, only once I think, and am surprised that we have not tripped more.
Having heard about lack of water in the tank, we try to make sure we don't make that mistake but have an extra element with us. A note at the switch when winterizing can be helpful, or such notes taped inside the trailer for spring. We also have a note about our exterior furnace vent, that has been covered (on the thermostat when we winterize) so as not to forget it in spring.
__________________
Cathy. Floating Cloud
"Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air.... "
Emerson
Does anyone know how the electric hot water conversion kits compare to the factory propane/electric water heater? I have the propane only unit, and was considering buying and installing a kit just to have that option available. The installation looks easy enough...
I have never used the electric conversion kit, but you are right, it seems like an easy mod. The elements seem a lot smaller at around 450W than the OEM ones which I think were at least twice that.
__________________
2017 Escape 5.0 TA
2015 Ford F150 Lariat 3.5L EcoBoost
2009 Escape 19 (previous)
“Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.” — Abraham Lincoln
When you say it is not common to have the GFI tripping, it trips if you overload it turning on too many items, and that is common I believe and the reason, I guess, for the GFCI. And then it has to be reset.
Circuit breaker; function, trips if you plug a kettle and heater into the same circuit and overload it.
GFCI; function, to prevent an electric shock if there is a defect that could result in a shock to the user.
Escape told us that when both are on, it will go to the electric first. Not sure what that means, whether both would be on simultaneously or not.
If that is true, it would presumably mean that when the water temperature in the tank drops, it hits the setting which turns on the electric element before (at a higher temperature) it hits the setting to turn on the propane burner. Both would come on only if you used enough hot water to get the tank temperature down to the propane-on point. It is reasonable to expect the the setpoints for the two heat sources to be different, because they use different thermostatic switches (one switching 12V DC control power for propane; the other switching 120V AC power directly to the element).
Also, water heaters are deliberately stratified: the hot water is withdrawn from the top, so as you use hot water replacement cold fills in from the bottom and you keep getting hot water. This means that the position of the thermostatic switches matter as well - if the electric element switch is mounted lower, it will come on first.
Certainly both heat sources (propane and electric) run together in normal operation (if both are switched on by the user) with the factory-installed electric heating element in either common brand of RV water heater, which is why the heater recovers (gets back to the desired temperature) more quickly with both available.
The water heater manufacturers have warned that the safety relief systems of heaters manufactured with propane-only can't handle the heat input rate of adding an aftermarket heating element. For instance, this is from an Atwood care & maintenance document:
Quote:
Use of Aftermarket Heating Element Devices (Hot Rods) can lead to an out of control heating of water in the tank and a catastrophic wet side explosion. These devices lack critical safety controls. Personal damage and product damage may result. Aftermarket heating element devices are not necessary with an Atwood Water Heater and will void the warranty
My thoughts too, Bruce. If the Hott Rod is set to shut off at the same temp the gas burner, I see no problem.
__________________
2017 Escape 5.0 TA
2015 Ford F150 Lariat 3.5L EcoBoost
2009 Escape 19 (previous)
“Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.” — Abraham Lincoln
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