Hot water

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by BCnomad

Sounds like CYA Brian.

Perhaps.

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

My thoughts too, Bruce. If the Hott Rod is set to shut off at the same temp the gas burner, I see no problem.

Since the add-on element (such as a Hott Rod) is not part of the appliance, it presumably does not use the original equipment high temperature limit switch. If it is controlled only by temperature at the element, which is installed near the bottom of the heater, it could overheat the water.

There may be no problem with the add-on heaters. If you add one, you're becoming the appliance designer; you can decide if you are qualified to do that, and if the add-on heater is okay. I certainly don't blame Atwood for refusing to accept responsibility for someone else's design.

[steve dunham]

Water heaters are,required to have,both an operating limit and an over temperature ( High ) limit. One is designed to control the water temp and the other is a safety. If the water in the water heater was allowed to get hot enough it could start to produce steam .
The hot rod has an operating limit only.
The over pressure / temperature valve is the safety of last resort because it allows hot water / steam to be released to the atmosphere, that is why the discharge from the valve is piped to floor level.
The high limit switches for water heaters and boilers are required to have a manual reset. High limits for boiler have to have a n/c contact hard wired in series before the boiler control circuit or computer control. In other words you can not rely on a control device or computer to turn something on in order to shut something off.
It has nothing to do with CYA it has everything to do with ensuring safety.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

I have never used the electric conversion kit, but you are right, it seems like an easy mod. The elements seem a lot smaller at around 450W than the OEM ones which I think were at least twice that.

The Hott Rod is 400W while Suburban SW6DE OEM element is 1440W. So you have less than a third of the recovery. Since the Suburban is 6 GPH and since wattage and heating are directly proportional this would make the Hott Rod approx. 1.7 GPH recovery. Might keep a hot tank hot, but take quite awhile to completely heat a cold tank on it's own. I think as an add-on this might have limited usefulness when you have a propane mode with 10.2 GPH recovery.

[float5]

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

Circuit breaker; function, trips if you plug a kettle and heater into the same circuit and overload it.

GFCI; function, to prevent an electric shock if there is a defect that could result in a shock to the user.

Ron

Thanks for that which we knew I guess but when we overloaded, we were told by Escape to reset the GFCI, which we did, and never did anything to our panel breakers that I recall. Once we tripped and reset the exterior GFCI (or what I think is the exterior GFCI) and another time we tripped the inverter and reset what I thought was the GFCI on it under the bench, as said to do by Reace. Neither time did we deal with a breaker on the panel that I know.

At home, we know the GFCI is to prevent an electric shock but there is apparently some difference with the trailer?

[Daubsy]

Originally Posted by FlaGman

Does anyone know how the electric hot water conversion kits compare to the factory propane/electric water heater? I have the propane only unit, and was considering buying and installing a kit just to have that option available. The installation looks easy enough...

As Dave mentioned the OEM heater elements are much better than the conversion kits. I recently installed the 600W Lightning Rod kit for my Suburban SW6D, which is wired to a switch inside. Unlike the Hott Rod model, the heating element replaces the anode. I haven't used it in action yet, but a test run gave me hot water in about 75 mins.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by float5

I am an idiot at electrical but from what you are saying, I take it that your father would not have been shocked had the element not burned out? That is definitely a very dangerous situation. Glad he is okay.

When you say it is not common to have the GFI tripping, it trips if you overload it turning on too many items, and that is common I believe and the reason, I guess, for the GFCI. And then it has to be reset. I am supposing that you are not saying that it does not have that function. We have tripped it, only once I think, and am surprised that we have not tripped more.

Cathy I'm glad that this forum seems to engage people on what many would see as mundane topics. We are all learning and from what I can tell from my short time here is that there are many very well educated people posting. To clarify, I want to stress that my father was shocked due to a combination of events. The element had to fail with a Hot-Ground condition, meaning when the element sheath failed that 120V was conducted to the frame. My father's extension cord from the trailer cord to the garage outlet also had a damaged ground prong. If the trailer was properly grounded he would not have been shocked as the current would have taken that path. He was originally plugged in to a normal (non-GFI) outlet so he did not have ground fault protection. A normal circuit breaker in the trailer 120V panel or your house only protects from overloading the circuit (too many amps). The trailer and all appliances operated "fine" on the normal outlet. The GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupter) detects when current is taking an unintended path. This unintended path can vary but for safety is assumed to be a person (i.e. potential electrocution) and it trips instantly. As soon as the trailer was plugged in to a GFI outlet with a new power cord, and the water heater element rewired, the GFI tripped. This proved that the water heater was causing the fault and reminds us all of the safety and usefulness of a properly grounded trailer and GFI outlets. My earlier comment regarding the optional hard wired surge protector that can be ordered in the trailers was meant to illustrate that these would not have helped in this case as they do not provide ground fault protection, only protection for incoming power issues from the source (i.e. over/under voltage, open ground, open neutral, reverse polarity) from home outlet, campground pedestal or generator.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by float5

Thanks for that which we knew I guess but when we overloaded, we were told by Escape to reset the GFCI, which we did, and never did anything to our panel breakers that I recall. Once we tripped and reset the exterior GFCI (or what I think is the exterior GFCI) and another time we tripped the inverter and reset what I thought was the GFCI on it under the bench, as said to do by Reace. Neither time did we deal with a breaker on the panel that I know.

At home, we know the GFCI is to prevent an electric shock but there is apparently some difference with the trailer?

The GFCI in your trailer is the exact same GFCI that is in your home
GFCI ' s are not intended to be nor do they perform as an overcurrent device . There are different levels of GFCI protection based on there allowed milliamp leakage . There are GFCI for hospital , residential and certain defined uses which have different milliamp trip levels ,
Circuit breakers / fuses are overcurrent devices and are designed to safely interupt the load under overcurrent or fault conditions.
Fuses and breakers have different interupting ratings and trip curves . GFCI 's and circuit breakers are not the same thing nor do they perform the same function. Many times when starting a motor operated appliance , a GFCI will trip , not because of an overload but because it senses a leakage current above its rating.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by float5

Thanks for that which we knew I guess but when we overloaded, we were told by Escape to reset the GFCI, which we did, and never did anything to our panel breakers that I recall. Once we tripped and reset the exterior GFCI (or what I think is the exterior GFCI) and another time we tripped the inverter and reset what I thought was the GFCI on it under the bench, as said to do by Reace. Neither time did we deal with a breaker on the panel that I know.

At home, we know the GFCI is to prevent an electric shock but there is apparently some difference with the trailer?

Just to clarify you are referring to the exterior GFI convenience outlet on the trailer and GFI outlets on an inverter. I don't know the cause of your issues, but I do know that if you tripped these outlets it was a ground fault not an overload. We don't have an inverter, but in any case, none of these GFI outlets matters in relation to my discussion of getting shocked from the frame due to the water heater element failure. The only GFI outlet that matters is one that the trailer main power cord might be plugged into at the power source.

[float5]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

The GFCI in your trailer is the exact same GFCI that is in your home
GFCI ' s are not intended to be nor do they perform as an overcurrent device . There are different levels of GFCI protection based on there allowed milliamp leakage . There are GFCI for hospital , residential and certain defined uses which have different milliamp trip levels ,
Circuit breakers / fuses are overcurrent devices and are designed to safely interupt the load under overcurrent or fault conditions.
Fuses and breakers have different interupting ratings and trip curves . GFCI 's and circuit breakers are not the same thing nor do they perform the same function. Many times when starting a motor operated appliance , a GFCI will trip , not because of an overload but because it senses a leakage current above its rating.

I saw an explanation on this that the circuit breakers are basically to protect equipment and the GFCIs are basically to protect people and therefore, the GFCIs will trip far more quickly.

In other words, GFCIs are far more sensitive to be able to trip at much lower levels and will trip easily.

They also said that there can be ghost GFCIs tripping that is due to their ability to trip at such low levels.

They mention that 90% of the reasons for tripping are worn connections and the like, which was apparently the case above.

I thought that I had run the microwave too long with the inverter but guess not from your explanation. And, in the other case, do not remember what was going on except that we had no electric at an outlet until we finally were able to reset the outside GFCI. At least, that is what we thought.

[float5]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Just to clarify you are referring to the exterior GFI convenience outlet on the trailer and GFI outlets on an inverter. I don't know the cause of your issues, but I do know that if you tripped these outlets it was a ground fault not an overload. We don't have an inverter, but in any case, none of these GFI outlets matters in relation to my discussion of getting shocked from the frame due to the water heater element failure. The only GFI outlet that matters is one that the trailer main power cord might be plugged into at the power source.

I have not seen where the GFCI is located that is for the main power cord. Have others seen this?

Thank you for bringing this up. Some of us have learned something.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by float5

I saw an explanation on this that the circuit breakers are basically to protect equipment and the GFCIs are basically to protect people and therefore, the GFCIs will trip far more quickly.

In other words, GFCIs are far more sensitive to be able to trip at much lower levels and will trip easily...

Yes, a GFCI detects and reacts to a much lower current, but it's current in an entirely different place - there's no direct relationship.

• The circuit breaker reacts to excessive current flowing in the current on the normal path (the hot and neutral wires) where current is supposed to flow; in an Escape trailer this is a few to 30 amps, depending on the circuit.
• The Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter reacts to any current taking a path it is not supposed to take (by comparing the current in the wires where it is supposed to flow); this is a few milliamps (thousands of one amp).

The GFCI is tripping in reaction to current a thousand times smaller, but a different current. Which feature trips (overcurrent circuit breaker or GGCI) depends on what is wrong, not sensitivity.

I just stumbled across a good explanation from NEMA of GFCIs, why they exist, and how they work: Understanding GFCIs

Originally Posted by float5

I have not seen where the GFCI is located that is for the main power cord. Have others seen this?

I doubt there is a GFCI for the main power feed; if there were one, it should be at the campsite's receptacle or the campground's circuit breaker for that circuit. A GGCI can be built into a circuit breaker that goes into a panel, but I haven't seen one of these used in an Escape and wouldn't expect it. All GFCIs could be in the breakers for the circuits which are protected, but putting them in the first receptacle in each circuit (as needed) makes them a lot more accessible for testing and resetting.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by float5

Escape told us that when both are on, it will go to the electric first. Not sure what that means, whether both would be on simultaneously or not.

With all due respect to Escape this does not appear to be true. From the Suburban manual there are separate combination thermostat/high limit assemblies for propane and electric operation naturally, but they are set the same. Thermostats maintain 130F (non-adjustable), manual reset high limits are triggered at 180F. Safety relief valve would open at 210F or 150 psi. Gas and electric can operate simultaneously and would simply heat the water faster to the 130F set point. Location on the tank looks identical and any bias in the set points would be minimal and unintended.

The Hott Rod units do have the same principle with a combination adjustable thermostat (preset to 120F) and a manual reset high limit at 170F. I think the biggest risk with these units is the reliance on proper adherence of the thermostat/high limit assembly onto the tank (with a bonding tape and silicone). If the thermostat/high limit assembly falls off you would be running wild and would be heating continuously with only the heater safety relief valve left to open.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by float5

I saw an explanation on this that the circuit breakers are basically to protect equipment and the GFCIs are basically to protect people and therefore, the GFCIs will trip far more quickly.

In other words, GFCIs are far more sensitive to be able to trip at much lower levels and will trip easily.

They also said that there can be ghost GFCIs tripping that is due to their ability to trip at such low levels.

They mention that 90% of the reasons for tripping are worn connections and the like, which was apparently the case above.

I thought that I had run the microwave too long with the inverter but guess not from your explanation. And, in the other case, do not remember what was going on except that we had no electric at an outlet until we finally were able to reset the outside GFCI. At least, that is what we thought.

Originally Posted by float5

I have not seen where the GFCI is located that is for the main power cord. Have others seen this?

Thank you for bringing this up. Some of us have learned something.

Electricity takes the path of least resistance ..
The water heater if it has an electric element is required to be intentionally grounded through an equipment grounding conductor.
If the water heater is adequately grounded and the trailer frame is adequately grounded the path of least resistance is back to the main service or the trailer pedestal .If the water heater element fails , the leakage current should be carried on the equipment grounding conductor. If you get a shock off the trailer frame because the water heater element failed then your water heater and trailer are not properly grounded . Adding GFCI protection to protect your trailer does not eliminate the requirement to adequately ground the trailer or the water heater . GFCI's are not a replacement for or a sustitute for proper grounding. GFCI are a useful safety device but they do not prevent the possibility of electrical shock or harm or damage under every possible scenario.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

If you get a shock off the trailer frame because the water heater element failed then your water heater and trailer are not properly grounded. Adding GFCI protection to protect your trailer does not eliminate the requirement to adequately ground the trailer or the water heater.

Steve thank you for reiterating this. I have tried to convey that the shock was due to both the water heater element failure hot to ground AND an extension cord with a bad ground plug.

[float5]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Steve thank you for reiterating this. I have tried to convey that the shock was due to both the water heater element failure hot to ground AND an extension cord with a bad ground plug.

And does anyone know if they are coming out of the factory properly grounded. And how to see if they are.

[Greg A]

I feel better about the propane only choice. We had the two way on the 05 17b but it was burned out during po's reign. Changed the element which was a bit of a chore, still didn't work. Checked all the obvious things still didn't work. Decided I liked how it worked on propane so gave up on getting it to ever work on electric. Made it an easy item to bypass on the build sheet for the 19.
Just glad the Dad was OK and didn't get a worse shock.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by float5

And does anyone know if they are coming out of the factory properly grounded. And how to see if they are.

This is not a factory issue. The Escape trailer electrical systems are built to high standards. I am sure the trailers and appliances are properly grounded. The failure of the water heater element was user error and just happened to fail in a "hot to ground" state based on my continuity test. The bad extension cord was used from the end of the factory cord to the house outlet using a 30 to 15 amp adapter. This was our fault for not inspecting and seeing the missing ground prong on our cord.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by float5

And does anyone know if they are coming out of the factory properly grounded. And how to see if they are.

I haven't seen any indication of anything less than correct grounding practices in Escapes. To check, I would plug the trailer into a known good shore power outlet, and plug a basic receptacle tester into one of the trailer's outlets.

[padlin]

E-2 on the optional surge protector is for an open ground.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Yes, a GFCI detects and reacts to a much lower current, but it's current in an entirely different place - there's no direct relationship.

• The circuit breaker reacts to excessive current flowing in the current on the normal path (the hot and neutral wires) where current is supposed to flow; in an Escape trailer this is a few to 30 amps, depending on the circuit.
• The Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter reacts to any current taking a path it is not supposed to take (by comparing the current in the wires where it is supposed to flow); this is a few milliamps (thousands of one amp).

The GFCI is tripping in reaction to current a thousand times smaller, but a different current. Which feature trips (overcurrent circuit breaker or GGCI) depends on what is wrong, not sensitivity.

I just stumbled across a good explanation from NEMA of GFCIs, why they exist, and how they work: Understanding GFCIs


I doubt there is a GFCI for the main power feed; if there were one, it should be at the campsite's receptacle or the campground's circuit breaker for that circuit. A GGCI can be built into a circuit breaker that goes into a panel, but I haven't seen one of these used in an Escape and wouldn't expect it. All GFCIs could be in the breakers for the circuits which are protected, but putting them in the first receptacle in each circuit (as needed) makes them a lot more accessible for testing and resetting.

GFCI are available in 15 ,20 ,30 amp , SP breakers. They are also available in 240 VAC versions for hot tubs etc.. I have seen 30 amp GFCI protected receptacles in campground pedestals
GFCI circuit breakers cost 4 times as much as a GFCI receptacle so it isn't hard to figure out which one most contractors choose to install .
Many inspectors prefer the GFCI receptacle installed at the point of usage. I have gone to many homes where the homeowner has removed the GFCI breaker and replaced it with a standard breaker because of nuisance tripping . The length and the way the circuit wiring is run can lead to false tripping due to capacitive coupling or induced spikes.