How much propane do you burn below freezing?

[Viajante]

Unless you are in a backcountry area where you can dispose of wastewater like a backpacker or in an outhouse, the limiting factor is the blackwater tank, especially if there are two people. If you can properly dispose of the waste, the second limiting factor is fresh water supply. Carry a container and siphon it into your fresh water tank. After that it is a tie between propane and greywater, depending on how many showers you take vs how far to a filling station. I doubt if you would keep the temp at 70 degrees at night or while you are gone during the day, so propane lasts at least two weeks per container.

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

This definitely varies by region. I've seen sewer service at sites, and at a common location for the campground, but I've never seen a gray-only sewer, or any kind of sewer dispersed around the campground this way. Granted, that's from a relatively small sample of public and private campgrounds in six provinces, and as few as only two locations in each province.

I have seen quite a few over the years, especially in Federal and Provincial sites. There main purpose is meant for tenters, or any other campers, that don't have holding tanks, to dump their washing waste down.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by Donna D.

Now the gray water can be dumped into any gray water drain. I don't know about the parks you stay at, but in most of the parks I stay at there are gray water disposal sites about every third site. I made a homemade blue tote for less than $20 and can drain off graywater daily, pickup the tote and drain.

I might try that. With our 16' Casita, I used to use one of the smaller commercial wheeled totes for our gray water only. It was just light enough when full to pick up and drain into the large sinks often found between restrooms in national parks. At Acadia, they had gray water drains placed around the park. That seemed like a perfectly sensible place to dump my small tote, but a park ranger totally freaked out, thinking I was dumping black water there. "This is for tent campers to use for dumping dishwater only!" she practically yelled at me. With the Escape, we've moved up to serious pull-behind tote, but I might make up one of your smaller jobs that would be little less conspicuous for draining off a few gallons from time to time. That would add a day or two between the long slow drives with the big tote.

[yhbae]

I guess totes are possible options but I would have liked to book one site one (or two) weeks at a time and dump at the station in between. Am I dreaming here with Escape 21's holding tank capacities?

[Parker]

I'm the wrong one to ask about the 21, but with the 19, there is no way we could go that long....but it's totally dependent on how much water you use. How many showers, how much dishwashing, how good you are at conserving, etc.

[daveandsandyclink]

Hi John,
I don't want to burst your bubble but Escape trailers are not four season engineered. How much winter camping/off the grid trailer camping have you done? If not much, try it in summer weather first. Then cold weather camping at home off the grid. Then short, close outings before putting yourselves at risk. Your thinking about "wet" camping below freezing for days at a time may be flawed. Most people camping in cold weather off the grid, dry camp and use disposable toilet bags or campground toilets. They are very conservative with the resources. (water & power) Your solar power system and batteries may not keep up with your usage expectations for several days especially if it's cold, cloudy, shady, and snowing or raining. There is of course less hours of sunlight and less direct sunlight. Search the archives and other written sources on this subject and learn how to enjoy winter camping successfully.

[Donna D.]

I don't consider myself an RVer, but a camper... and at times "a hard sided tent camper." I know how to conserve water "Navy Showers," and to wipe dishes clean before tossing into the sink for washing. No matter the brand of all molded towable, if you think fresh water and storage capacity are nearly unlimited... you'll be sadly disappointed.

Buy a 40' diesel pusher if you're overly concerned about electric useage and storing dirty water. Othersize... figure it out!

YMMV

[yhbae]

So far, our camping experience has been limited to tents and we have camped frequently throughout the (non-winter) months but especially during late September in Ontario where during the night, you get sub-freezing temperatures. We like to hike all year long but especially during fall leaf season, hence the concern. 90% of our camping will be done during spring/summer/autumn where water freeze will not be an issue, so this concern is only applicable to those remaining 10% of the time. We will NOT be camping in the winter, that would not be very pleasant... We may pick an odd year and try going to Florida and live through the winter but that's another story all together.

I figure each person use 5g of water per shower if we conserve carefully. I figure we take shower twice per week, so that's 20g gone per week between us. If there are good shower facilities, we will use that too. So we have 10g left per week for other use. We could re-fill some fresh water if needed. Moving from one park to another once a week sounds quite nice. Our past camping experience has been following this pattern as well.

Funny you mention A-Class Diesel Pusher, Donna. I in fact looked at that scenario carefully as well and spent lots of time analyzing. We even went to multiple RV shows and looked at every single A-class busses. We may eventually go there if we like spending more time away from our home. That will be closer to snow bird lifestyle. But for now, we'd like to limit our expenses and try out a small trailer route first. Escape 21 is a pure luxury compare to what we are used to (a tent + kitchen shelter + public showers/toilets). But I'd like to spend as much time looking at different options before plunging some $$ into the setup and get as close to my requirements as I can. Once we have the setup, I won't worry, we'll enjoy the camping.

As for the electricity needs, I don't have a choice - I will continue to work during travel and I need the internet. Its either camping with laptop+internet or no camping at all and guess which I prefer... I am in a fortunate situation where I can work during any hours, so I'll be working mostly during the evenings and nights. After doing the solar sizing exercise, I am convinced that it is possible to create a setup that will work for me based on the Escape 21, so I'm not as concerned in this respect.

[Donna D.]

I promise you, if you think ahead.. plot and plan you'll figure out everything you need, whether it's solar to recharge the batteries or a tote to discharge dirty water. It's not about the rig you buy, but the memories you make along the way.

My mother once told me (and she was a camper) you'll never remember the trips that worked perfectly, but the ones where you stumbled and had problems along the way. Because now you have a lasting memory.

Smart lady, my mother.

Safe travels, always.

[yhbae]

Originally Posted by Donna D.

I promise you, if you think ahead.. plot and plan you'll figure out everything you need, whether it's solar to recharge the batteries or a tote to discharge dirty water. It's not about the rig you buy, but the memories you make along the way.

My mother once told me (and she was a camper) you'll never remember the trips that worked perfectly, but the ones where you stumbled and had problems along the way. Because now you have a lasting memory.

Smart lady, my mother.

Safe travels, always.

I do understand & respect her opinion, but I'm an engineer (well, project management in software development) and I enjoy the process of planning and analyzing before execution. I also LOVE gadgets and to me, RVs are BIG gadgets. I assure you, once our trailer based camping life begins, I will enjoy both the memory along the way and the gadgets I will have to deal with... My DW always calls me I'm such a tech geek. Having said that, your mother appears to agree with my DW's philosophy...

[ddevin]

We go spring skiing in Jasper when the temps at night drop to -10 to -15C. This is dry camping off the grid. The furnace runs on and off throughout the night and keeps us warm no problem. We also use electricity for Laptops etc. Our single factory solar panel charges our two 6 volt batteries no problem. We are very comfortable doing this, and have gone for 4 nights, but could do so for much longer. At times we also carry one of those supplemental re-chargeable power sources for our electronics. The nice thing about having dual propane is that if you run out you can switch tanks and go in for a refill in the next few days. I should add that we have the extra insulation and thermal windows, but no spray foam.

[hillary]

We have an old 17B and the tanks are smaller than current 17Bs (which are still smaller than 19s and 21s). I believe our black is 7 gal and our grey is 12 gal. We're fine with two humans for 3-4 days that way. We conserve water as much as possible, and it's usually the black tank that's the limiting factor (water in = water out, can't get around it unless you pee in the woods, and then I'm caffeinating frogs). If you haven't camped in a trailer before one thing you may not know is the shower head comes with a real easy toggle, so you just get wet, turn it off, soap up, and then turn the water back on and rinse off. I don't think I've used 5 gal on a shower ever in the trailer!
Whoops forgot to mention: I think you'll be fine with two 20lb propane tanks. We've camped below freezing with the thermostat set to as close as we could get to 60 degrees F (15ish C) and it really sipped at the propane. I know the 21 is a larger box to heat, but I can't imagine it'll be that big of an issue. I agree, bring along the extra tank in case, but I'm pretty sure you won't need it.

[yhbae]

Dave & Hillary, thanks for the responses - they are all very encouraging.

Dave, I'm impressed that you could camp in those cold weather with 95w panel + 2 batteries and no foams. I'm a chicken so I'll still go with at least 2x95w but I am impressed!

Also good to hear that 5g is more than enough for a shower. My DW and I plan to have some competition on who can shower with the least amount of water some day... lol.

[hillary]

I should mention, since ours is older, we don't have extra insulation or thermal windows because those weren't even options then. We did buy and use a portable 85 watt solar panel and the trailer only has one group 27 battery.

[cargofool]

I say great idea to run all your scenarios, plot and scheme now, to minimize surprises after purchase. some enjoyable mental stimulation up front, a good idea of what you're getting into down the road.

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by yhbae

Also good to hear that 5g is more than enough for a shower. M.

So "g" does for gallons! That's several times what we use and have used per shower for years on our boat. As others have said, wet, water off, soap, shampoo, water on, rinse. After a while it just becomes second nature.

Ron