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Old 05-03-2014, 12:56 PM   #21
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Do these machines cycle on/off? Pulling 10 amps per hour is a lot over a 8 hour night!!
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Old 05-03-2014, 01:16 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
Do these machines cycle on/off? Pulling 10 amps per hour is a lot over a 8 hour night!!
The amount of air they are pushing varies with the breathing and the need, but they do run the whole time. The actually use time is more like 6 or 7 hours night...sometimes less. I wish I had the newer (by 3 months) machine my husband has since his only draws 3.7 amps.
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Old 05-03-2014, 02:16 PM   #23
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The amount of air they are pushing varies with the breathing and the need, but they do run the whole time. The actually use time is more like 6 or 7 hours night...sometimes less. I wish I had the newer (by 3 months) machine my husband has since his only draws 3.7 amps.
I found some useful numbers on a CPAP Community forum.

1) For a "PR" machine: "Kill-A-Watt usage: Time: 9:10 and 0.06 KWH with 8:30 therapy hours." with no humidity.

2) For a "S9" machine with humidifier on, and no EPR: "shows a power consumption of 0.18 kwh for 6.7 therapy hours each night."

So, 60 watt hours or 180 watt hours totals depending on brand and/or humidity.
Assuming a pair of 6V deep cycle batteries can supply 1000 watts to the 1/2 discharge state, then 5 nights seems to be a reasonable number. That is assuming no recharge from solar and no other drains. AND it is assuming that the battery numbers are correct AND the CPAP posters are accurate. Lots of assumptions but I would be optimistic and say it is reasonable.
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Old 05-03-2014, 02:23 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by alanmalk View Post
I found some useful numbers on a CPAP Community forum.

1) For a "PR" machine: "Kill-A-Watt usage: Time: 9:10 and 0.06 KWH with 8:30 therapy hours." with no humidity.

2) For a "S9" machine with humidifier on, and no EPR: "shows a power consumption of 0.18 kwh for 6.7 therapy hours each night."

So, 60 watt hours or 180 watt hours totals depending on brand and/or humidity.
Assuming a pair of 6V deep cycle batteries can supply 1000 watts to the 1/2 discharge state, then 5 nights seems to be a reasonable number. That is assuming no recharge from solar and no other drains. AND it is assuming that the battery numbers are correct AND the CPAP posters are accurate. Lots of assumptions but I would be optimistic and say it is reasonable.
Thanks Alan! I am encouraged given that we would NOT be using the humidifiers and would be getting good charging (hopefully full) during the day! BTW, what was the 9:10 time about in the first example?
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Old 05-03-2014, 02:36 PM   #25
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Just a wild guess since I am not familiar with the "Kill-A-Watt" meter. I'm thinking the 9:10 was the total time the meter was turned on - nothing to do with the time the CPAP was running. But in any case, given all the other assumptions, the difference between 9:10 and 8:30 is probably insignificant. In other words, probably the equivalent of running the water pump for 5 minutes more or less.
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Old 05-03-2014, 05:34 PM   #26
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I would leave the humidifiers attached when using 12 volt, the air will still blow across the water and it will add some moisture. Just the heater for the water will not work. My understanding is the machines will sense you are on 12 volt and turn of the heater. Not quite sure how all that is possible as the 120 volt power cord have a brick to convert to a lower voltage and connect to the same jack on the back of the machine.

My experience has been with the Respronics.
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Old 05-03-2014, 06:25 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanmalk View Post
I found some useful numbers on a CPAP Community forum.

1) For a "PR" machine: "Kill-A-Watt usage: Time: 9:10 and 0.06 KWH with 8:30 therapy hours." with no humidity.

2) For a "S9" machine with humidifier on, and no EPR: "shows a power consumption of 0.18 kwh for 6.7 therapy hours each night."

So, 60 watt hours or 180 watt hours totals depending on brand and/or humidity.
Assuming a pair of 6V deep cycle batteries can supply 1000 watts to the 1/2 discharge state, then 5 nights seems to be a reasonable number. That is assuming no recharge from solar and no other drains. AND it is assuming that the battery numbers are correct AND the CPAP posters are accurate. Lots of assumptions but I would be optimistic and say it is reasonable.
I think your math maybe incorrect. A group of 6v batteries will provide around 250 hours, at 40% would be 100 available hours. Using a combined 10 hours per hour for 6-8 hours means one night use before needing charging.
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Old 05-03-2014, 08:49 PM   #28
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Assuming a pair of 6V deep cycle batteries can supply 1000 watts to the 1/2 discharge state...
My guess is that this was intended to mean 1,000 watt-hours, or about 80 amp-hours at 12 volts... perhaps reasonable for a pair of Escape-sized batteries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
A group of 6v batteries will provide around 250 hours, at 40% would be 100 available hours.
If you assume 250 amp-hours of capacity, 40% of that would be 100 amp-hours... or 50% would be 125 amp-hours. 125 amp-hours at 12 volts would be 1500 watt-hours.

I believe that Alan is assuming a significantly lower total battery capacity than Jim (2,000 W-h or 160 A-h from Alan, versus 250 A-h or 3,000 W-h from Jim).

Quote:
Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
Using a combined 10 hours per hour for 6-8 hours means one night use before needing charging.
"hours per hour" makes no sense, so I assume this was supposed to be "10 amp-hours per hour" (average 10 amps or 120 watts, for two units), but the values Alan quoted earlier indicate only 60 watt-hours for 8.5 hours of use of single unit, or an astoundingly low 8 watts average consumption. It looks like there's a large difference in the power consumption assumptions here.

It doesn't help when people leave out half of the units of measure...
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Old 05-04-2014, 01:32 AM   #29
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The dental device escape artist mentions can be a good option, they work for a lot of people. If it worked for just of one of you it would help. If it didn't help, I'd hate to run just one machine. If both of you have sleep apnea, that's not healthy for the person without a machine.

Consider trying it with your normal camping usage. How much you usually use the lights, furnace etc. also effects how low your batteries are in the morning. A night spent with the CPAP machines running plus your other use will tell you what you need. It's really hard to predict how much power you use overnight. If there is a way to spend one night in the trailer before you leave for a longer trip you will learn.

Since your health is at stake, a good battery monitor would be worth considering. It will let you keep close watch on the batteries and make sure you charge enough and don't overdraw them. Batteries are only designed to be drawn down a certain percent. If you go deeper than that you will ruin them. They also don't like never getting to full charge. The difference between batteries that last 1-2 years and batteries that last 5-6 years is how well they are cared for. They are too expensive to replace to abuse them.

Another option is to increase the amount of solar and/or battery power available. If you have enough battery capacity but it charges too slowly another solar panel might be the answer. If it is both charging and storage that is lacking you might need another one or two more panels plus two more batteries.

A portable solar panel would be the fastest way to add charging capacity. Or you might prefer a second panel on the roof. There are pros and cons with either approach. You will find lots of discussion if you search.

Adding batteries is more of a problem since there are concerns with weight, space and ventilation. I'm not familiar enough with the 5.0 to guess where you would have to put them. In a few years, when lithium batteries are ready for mass commercial use they will be the best way to go. Right now, if you are not an early adopter of high tech gear, you won't want them.

This thread shows a 19 with two solar panels and four batteries: http://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f8...anel-2175.html I know it is not a 5.0 but it will give you some idea what is possible with a little creativity.

It will also depend on what season and part of the country you are in. Since you are in the southwest I agree that you will have optimal conditions much of the time. However, in your place, I would want to have enough reserves to ride out a cloudy day or two.
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Old 05-04-2014, 11:10 AM   #30
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Thanks Westender...good suggestions. We are fortunate that neither one of us has really severe sleep apnea - I wasn't even aware I had it until I had a study done - so I think we (especially me) would not be harmed by a few nights without it. Also we live at about 7000 feet and if we are camping at a lower elevation, which is often the case, we automatically get a bump up in oxygen for a few days!
We are in the process of ordered in the appropriate power cords to run off 12v. Each machine is different and specific in its requirements
We do have plans to do a 'dry run' overnight at home and see how the battery responds. That will give us valuable information for sure. We had already converted our lights to leds so that helps.
Thanks again,
Fran & Dave
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Old 05-06-2014, 09:11 AM   #31
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Well, we did a dry run overnight with one of the CPAP machines. We ran through the inverter because we don't yet have DC power cords.
The machine we used was the one that draws 3.75 amps. We had great results.
We really just noted the battery strength as displayed on the solar power monitor. Aside from the CPAP there were only 2 led lights running for part of the time. I know there are lots of other measurements and monitors we could employ but we were just going for simple....
After 4 hours battery strength was at 95% and after 8 hours continuous usage it was at 90%. Within 30 minutes of sunrise it was already back up to 95%. We never saw the graph on the inverter display go below 12.6 volts.

We'll give it a try with both machines later this week in Moab and report back!

Oh, btw, the batteries are 6V, 232amp hours.
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Old 05-06-2014, 10:01 AM   #32
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Thanks for the update - should be even less draw down on the batteries with out going through the inverter, if I understand those things correctly.
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Old 05-06-2014, 10:08 AM   #33
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Thanks for the update - should be even less draw down on the batteries with out going through the inverter, if I understand those things correctly.
That's what I've heard too. We'll try that as soon as we get the specialized (for each CPAP) DC cables we ordered.
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Old 05-06-2014, 10:12 AM   #34
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Thanks for the update - should be even less draw down on the batteries with out going through the inverter, if I understand those things correctly.
You've got that right; the normal losses for coverting one voltage to another is what produces the normal heating of the converting device (inverter in this case.)
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Old 08-07-2014, 06:01 PM   #35
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Ran across this item designed for coolers but could be helpful for CPAP users trying to avoid running the batteries down too low - cuts off battery power when battery drops below 11 volts.

12-Volt Battery Saver for Koolatron 12 Volt Coolers - 70110
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Old 08-07-2014, 06:41 PM   #36
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Ran across this item designed for coolers but could be helpful for CPAP users trying to avoid running the batteries down too low - cuts off battery power when battery drops below 11 volts.

12-Volt Battery Saver for Koolatron 12 Volt Coolers - 70110
This makes sense, but I tried a similar device and it did not work well. I was running an electric cooler (may actually be a Koolatron) from our van when camping with a trailer not having power, and it still ran the van's battery down. It seems that when the voltage dropped the device would cut off, then the battery voltage would bounce back up a bit, then the device would switch back on... and after many cycles the cooler managed to drive the van's battery down to the point of not being able to start the vehicle. Since I purchased and used this device for exactly the purpose of avoiding this situation, which is exactly the intended purpose of the device, I was not happy.

The idea is sound; I would just be cautious about expectations for any specific device until it is proven in testing.
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Old 08-08-2014, 12:19 AM   #37
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I had a bad experience with a 12 V cooler running the vehicle battery dead once. Was out fishing/tent camping way back in the mountains in the Fernie area with my brother who owned the truck and the cooler. It must have been his fist experience using it? When we got back from a couple hour walk/wade down the river the battery was dead. Those coolers must draw a lot from the battery?
At least we caught a couple of cutthroat trout, but it was a catch and release river. The food in the cooler was still cold so we did have something to eat!

Moral of the story - always carry a set of jumper cables.
We did not have a set of jumper cables either.
It was way too far to walk out. I had my bike but was not looking forward to the prospect of riding it all the way back to Fernie - too far.
Fortunately for us there was another couple of fishers at the same spot where we were and they found a set of jumper cables in their truck when they finally got back. Saved.
Never did plug the cooler back in after that.
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Old 08-08-2014, 09:22 AM   #38
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a tad off topic

Just had to post this search result.....a bit spendy, though........

Solar Powered Generator - 3.240 Kilowatt Max Output - 19ft Trailer - 24 Panels - NEMA 4X Enclosure - Larson Electronics
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Old 08-11-2014, 12:23 PM   #39
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A little CPAP info

I have been a CPAP user for about 5 years now. When diagnosed with OSA I had been awake for a week and was going crazy from lack of sleep. Every time I would doze off my airway would collapse and no air could enter my lungs. This happened within seconds of dozing, so I could never fall asleep. The purpose of the CPAP is to inflate ones airway keeping it open by applying air pressure while one inhales. The pressure drops during exhalation so you don't have to exhale against the pressure. These are just fancy air compressors in a sense, but life savers for those that need them.

My first machine was a Respironics M series, and the newer one is a system 1 Respironics. Both machines are very thrifty with the electrical draw when the humidifier is turned off. The newer Respironics machines have a heated hose feature which may add to the power consumption. I don't know if it can be switched off manually. If not, stay away from those for camping. Also the earlier Respironics machines run at 12v as native voltage, so work with a simple cigarette lighter plug with no conversion. I also have a 20' cord with alligator clips so CPAP could be used in tents, and hooked to vehicle battery. The newer Respironics units use a different part number lighter adaptor which tells me the new machine may have a different current draw, and or native voltage. It is probably higher current for the hose heater.
My machine typically will take my group 27 RV battery from 100% to 88% over night. I find it best to recharge the battery on the second night when considering charge time, as a deeper discharged battery can absorb more current than a shallow one. With a generator doing the job time is more of a consideration than using solar, as solar works silently and for free. A generator may take 4 hours just to top off that 12%. It may take only six hours to do 24% on the second night due to better absorption rate. Solar is clearly the way to fly in sunny areas.
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Old 08-11-2014, 03:48 PM   #40
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We have had a CPAP in our Escape for several years. It was one reason (charging iPads and iPhones was another) for going to solar. Power usage during the night will vary from user to user depending on the pressure settings the user will require and how long they use the machine during the night.

This is an excellent example of solar making travel that much easier.
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