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Old 12-17-2016, 04:32 PM   #21
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6V battery charging

Lead acid batteries do not have memory... There are really two types of lead acid batteries: those designed for high current instantaneous loads and the "Deep Cycle" which are designed for moderate continuous loads. Both designs have a finite ability to be completely discharged with the deep cycle being more resistant to damage when it is completely discharged, hence the name "Deep Cycle". Is is good practice to minimize the occurrences of full discharge if you want to get the maximum life from any lead acid battery. Slow trickle charge electronic chargers with overcharge protection and "Float Mode" which operate in the range of 750 Milliamps to 1.5 Amps work best at charging and maintaining charge on stored batteries. Chargers of this type could take days to bring perfectly good batteries back to the "Green-Lite" status so you shouldn't be in a hurry. Remove the batteries if possible and set them on a bench while storage charging. Do not leave the batteries on a cement or dirt floor. Spend the extra money (not a lot with these small electronic chargers) and charge the batteries independently. I use the "Battery Tender Jr." which puts out 750 Milliamps and is fully automatic (but it will take a while)...
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Old 12-17-2016, 05:57 PM   #22
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All good information, Charlie, except for this detail:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chowlee View Post
Do not leave the batteries on a cement or dirt floor.
That's been obsolete for a very long time.
From the Trojan FAQ:
Quote:
1. What are some common myths associated with batteries?
  • ...
  • Storing a battery on concrete will discharge it quicker- Long ago, when battery cases were made out of natural rubber, this was true. Now, however, battery cases are made of polypropylene or other modern materials that allow a battery to be stored anywhere. A battery’s rate of discharge is affected by its construction, its age, and the ambient temperature. The main issue with storing on concrete is that if the battery leaks, the concrete will be damaged.
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Old 12-17-2016, 07:04 PM   #23
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6V Battery charging

Thanks for the correction, Brian. That rule came from my engineer dad (yeah, Ill throw him under the bus)...
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Old 12-17-2016, 07:16 PM   #24
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Concrete is cold. Wood or something else, not so much, right?
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Old 12-17-2016, 07:29 PM   #25
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Quote:
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Concrete is cold. Wood or something else, not so much, right?
Depends on the temperature.
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Old 12-17-2016, 08:10 PM   #26
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Quote:
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Concrete is cold. Wood or something else, not so much, right?
Any material can be any temperature. If you have a concrete floor which is colder than the air in the room, then an insulating material between the battery and the floor would keep the battery from getting as cold... but is that the situation? Even if it is, as long as the temperature of the concrete is at or above the freezing point (of water: 0 C or 32 F), then no matter what the state of charge of the battery it is safe. Colder (but still above freezing) is actually better, because it reduces the rate of self-discharge.

A concrete basement floor is probably the most ideal temperature of any point in a house, for storage of a lead-acid battery. Even in a garage, if water doesn't freeze on the floor around the battery, the floor's temperature is not a problem.
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Old 12-17-2016, 10:15 PM   #27
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Thanks for the correction, Brian. That rule came from my engineer dad (yeah, Ill throw him under the bus)...
Ufer Ground.

Your engineer dad was very correct in the past. Concrete is an efficient electrical ground and a leaking battery or older rubber cased battery could drain itself sitting on a concrete floor.

(from Wikipedia)

Concrete is naturally basic (has high pH). Ufer observed this meant that it had a ready supply of ions and so provides a better electrical ground than almost any type of soil. Ufer also found that the soil around the concrete became "doped", and its subsequent rise in pH caused the overall impedance of the soil itself to be reduced. The concrete enclosure also increases the surface area of the connection between the grounding conductor and the surrounding soil, which also helps to reduce the overall impedance of the connection.

Ufer's original grounding scheme used copper encased in concrete. However, the high pH of concrete often causes the copper to chip and flake. For this reason, steel is often used instead of copper.

When homes are built on concrete slabs, it is common practice to bring one end of the rebar up out of the concrete at a convenient location to make an easy connection point for the grounding electrode.[4]

Ufer grounds, when present, are preferred over the use of grounding rods. In some areas (like Des Moines, Iowa) Ufer grounds are required for all residential and commercial buildings.[5] The conductivity of the soil usually determines if Ufer grounds are required in any particular area.

An Ufer ground of specified minimum dimensions is recognized by the U.S. National Electrical Code as a grounding electrode.[6] The grounding conductors must have sufficient cover by the concrete to prevent damage when dissipating high-current lightning strikes.[7]

A disadvantage of Ufer grounds is that the moisture in the concrete can flash into steam during a lightning strike or similar high energy fault condition. This can crack the surrounding concrete and damage the building foundation.[8]
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Old 12-17-2016, 11:33 PM   #28
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I recall in the early 1970's, my high school auto shop teacher, who used to restore cars from the 1920's and 30's, had a really old lead-lined wooden-cased battery that he would show us students taking his shop classes. He told us that it was those old wooden-cased batteries that were the basis for the antiquated recommendation/warning to not store lead-acid batteries on the ground, even on concrete. The wooden case would absorb moisture and deteriorate, weakening the strength of the wood and its ability to help hold all of the heavy internal parts in their proper position needed to function. Modern plastic-cased batteries - no moisture absorption, no case weakening, no problem. At least that's what he told us, and I have no reason to doubt him....
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Old 12-18-2016, 09:28 AM   #29
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Between the soon to be parked in my driveway 5.0TA, the boat, the tractor and other
possessions (some mine, some family members) and all the batteries both 6V and 12V I think I'll spring for a charging station rather than a bunch of independent chargers... Maybe Santa could deliver


NOCO Genius G4 6V/12V 4.4A 4-Bank UltraSafe Smart Battery Charger
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:20 PM   #30
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Okay, you electrical engineers out there, is there really such a thing as "desulfinating" a marginal battery to make it perform better? Many manufacturers of battery maintainers touted the ability of their higher priced products to desulfinate batteries - even provide descriptions of how the process works. But some authoritative-appearing web sites state there is no such thing as "desulfination"- it's just a marketing gimic. What's the real deal?
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:26 PM   #31
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I asked my mechanic if they could do it for me. He said yes, but had never seen any positive results.
On the Trojan site I found a video once ( can't find it now ) where the narrator said you could do the same by charging the battery, unplugging the charger and then plugging it in again. Didn't say how long to leave it unplugged, but I suspect maybe 30 seconds so the charger resets.
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:42 PM   #32
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I asked my mechanic if they could do it for me. He said yes, but had never seen any positive results.
On the Trojan site I found a video once ( can't find it now ) where the narrator said you could do the same by charging the battery, unplugging the charger and then plugging it in again. Didn't say how long to leave it unplugged, but I suspect maybe 30 seconds so the charger resets.
One battery website had the following procedure for desulfinating a battery: 1) charge battery for 72 hours, 2) let sit for 12 hours, 3) read voltage output. Keep repeating until voltage reading stops improving after each charge/rest cycle. At that point, the battery will be "desulfinated" as good as it's going to get. This all came up when the instructions for a charger splitter I purchased for charging two batteries at the same time said the two batteries had to be at the same level of desulfination for it to work properly, but the instructions did not indicate how in the world to determine that. Still not sure how to compare the level of desufination of two batteries other than if they have the same voltage output they might be similar enough in desulfination. Any ideas?
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:49 PM   #33
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Still not sure how to compare the level of desufination of two batteries other than if they have the same voltage output they might be similar enough in desulfination. Any ideas?
Since the individual cells within a single battery won't be in exactly the same state, I doubt there's a good way to establish anything definitive about the "sulfinated" condition for a battery.
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Old 12-20-2016, 05:15 AM   #34
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Years ago, I worked with an engineer who had done it himself several times... This was back in the seventies when "Lead Acid" was pretty much it. I will warn you though, if you attempt it you will be buying a new wardrobe of work clothes no matter how careful you think you are! As explained by my mentor back in the day, sulphur deposits and other contaminants collect in the acid solution at the bottom of the cells. This build up of deposits is harmless at first, but becomes a high resistance current bleed into adjacent cells until the cells effectively die. If the structural components of the battery including the lead plates are intact, then the batteries can be emptied, flushed out, re-filled, and re-charged... Easier said then done. If you make it this far, you have two problems... First - what to do with the acid and goop that was remove/flushed from the battery and Second - where do I source the correct solution and strength of Acid to re-fill the batteries... This is where I lost interest back in the day and saved my money for purchasing new batteries. I will tell you though, it did work and the batteries behaved like new ones.
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Old 12-20-2016, 03:38 PM   #35
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While I like the idea of fixing things rather than throwing them away, I think in the case of acid-filled batteries it's probably a better idea to let a battery factory do a more thorough version of the same thing: recycle the failed battery into a new one! But the flush-and-refill method does make sense; I'm sure it would work for many batteries.
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Old 01-02-2017, 02:02 AM   #36
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The pulsed desulfation mode that some newer chargers have does seem to work. They do a smarter and more automated version of the unplug/replug thing, pulsing a higher voltage charge then dropping back down. I've personally had some luck with the Schumacher one on car batteries. Much less messy than opening it up and physically removing the crystals, and no worries about getting the acid content just right.
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