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Old 10-15-2016, 05:41 PM   #51
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Myron, it depends on how you use the inverter output. In the simplest use, just plugging a device into the inverter, no transfer switch is needed.

If the inverter output goes into the trailer wiring it's a good idea to have a transfer switch so that it's either or, not both at the same time. This prevents one from backfeeding into the other. Without the switch you have to be careful about switching on the inverter while connected to shore power. Perhaps not likely but potentially damaging if it happens.

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Old 10-15-2016, 05:47 PM   #52
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But when connected to shore power the inverter is not needed because there's nothing to invert, so it wouldn't ever be turned on, right?
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Old 10-15-2016, 06:19 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by MyronL View Post
But when connected to shore power the inverter is not needed because there's nothing to invert, so it wouldn't ever be turned on, right?
Right for us. We would never turn our inverter on unless boondocking.
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Old 10-15-2016, 07:07 PM   #54
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Well, as they say, accidents happen. In my case the remote switch is on my power panel and it wouldn't be difficult to accidentally turn it on.

I believe some inverter brands caution about having the inverter connected to a 110 source and backfeeding them whether the inverter is turned on or not.

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Old 10-15-2016, 08:48 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
If comparing two cables with the same cross-sectional area of copper, the number of strands makes no difference to current-carrying capacity or resistance (for DC or low-frequency power). In a power cable, stranding is only for flexibility, not capacity or resistance.
" When electricity flows through a wire, it mostly flows on the surface of the wire, not through the middle. This effect is more pronounced on high frequency AC than it is on DC or low frequency AC. This means that a "wire" of a given size that made up of many smaller strands can carry more power than a solid wire - simply because the stranded wire has more surface area. This is one reason why battery cables in your car and welding cables are made up of many very fine strands of smaller wire - it allows them to safely carry more power with less of that power being dissipated as heat. However, this "skin" effect is not as pronounced in a typical 12V DC automotive application, and the wire and cable used there is stranded for flexibility reasons.
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Old 10-15-2016, 08:51 PM   #56
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I cannot access just what the switch was that I used. I believe I started with a dual pole single throw switch and that worked inconsistently. I am not sure what was recommended. It was so easy as they pulled it off the shelf as my new friend, the electrician recommended.

What I had done is remove the wire serving the 110 volt outlet of the microwave from the back of the WFCO. In its place I had run a wire behind the wall to the inverter. The wire was a three wire with ground. It was 14 gauge. The white ground was common and the red went into the switch I installed, the black went into the other end and the inverter shared that same end. I must have seen Ron's photo because I mounted my inverter at the same angle and used a similar extension cord to connect inverter to the switch.

As an aside I found that on my 21 the outlet under the dressing table counter was also switched and I believe the one under the sink was likewise now available on the inverter. I liked this as the microwave outlet is inaccessible and there are two additional items I now plug in. A charger for electric toothbrushes (I boondock for a long time) and my Shark 110 volt vacuum. My floor and teeth are spotless.

We are still learning how much microwaving we can do. So far we have run it for 16 minutes without a significant draw on the batteries., This 16 minutes has some slight pauses as we switch microwave contents. If using the microwave you will find that once you stop the battery levels quickly recover and I am always surprised how few amps I have used based on my Trimetric battery monitor.

In all, we have been very pleased with the addition. Our major use is heating Bob Evans mashed potatoes, fresh or frozen vegetables and cooking those mini fresh potatoes. Oh and some soups. My rough estimate is that in the past year we have had shore power only about 15% of our camping nights. Works good in Cabela's and Walmart parking lots as well.
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Old 10-15-2016, 09:02 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by MyronL View Post
Well now I have to admit I am confused by this power toggle switch addition, Ron. My Xantrex doesn't need one (?) because it's wired into the WFCO and, has an on/off switch right on the inverter face. That's not how they all work??
Myron you have me confused again. Based on your picture in post #35 it appears you have the inverter negative grounded on the WFCO grounding lug. As we've discussed this is best directly to the battery or frame. Apparently it works but I know a small gauge wire goes from this lug to the frame from the factory so that would also need to be upsized to 2 AWG to properly complete your wiring. Otherwise maybe you can swap the negatives with the inverter ground going to the WFCO lug and the inverter negative to the frame.

Your 120V AC side is just the two GFCI outlets on the inverter face. You would not need a transfer switch because it does not appear you are wired into the trailer on the 120V side, but what is the line (looks like Romex) that is labeled "New Inverter Line" to duplex under fridge. How is that possibly wired from the inverter??
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Old 10-15-2016, 11:46 PM   #58
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The underlined statement in the Originally Posted below is incorrect.

I will quote from the website hosted by the cable maker - Belden:

"Skin Effect happens in all wire and cable (or in any metal object that conducts a signal, such as a trace on a circuit board or antennas, etc.). When the "signal" is DC, it uses the entire conductor, with the same amount of current flowing in the center of each wire as on the outside of the wire."

Me again - adding my comments (and will let it go). Batteries provide DC and only DC. Multi-stranding is only for the benefit of the mechanicals*, not the electrical current.

*Mechanicals, as in - welders need to move their wires frequently and without drag while they move the welding rod. Car motors vibrate independently from the chassis so need wires that flex easily. Campers who add wires to trailers need to move them into odd positions. Flex is necessary in these cases. But a solid rod of the same diameter will present the same voltage drop as an equal size multi-strand cable.


--
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotfishtacos View Post

" When electricity flows through a wire, it mostly flows on the surface of the wire, not through the middle. This effect is more pronounced on high frequency AC than it is on DC or low frequency AC. This means that a "wire" of a given size that made up of many smaller strands can carry more power than a solid wire - simply because the stranded wire has more surface area. This is one reason why battery cables in your car and welding cables are made up of many very fine strands of smaller wire - it allows them to safely carry more power with less of that power being dissipated as heat. However, this "skin" effect is not as pronounced in a typical 12V DC automotive application, and the wire and cable used there is stranded for flexibility reasons.
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Old 10-16-2016, 03:46 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by SFDavis50 View Post
Based on this thread can I assume that if I get the 1500W Inverter option the wiring at the batteries and ground will be heaver gauge than without the option?
At least with the 1500 watt inverter installations done by Escape at the factory that I have seen in photos, instead of upgrading the size of the wiring to the batteries, the inverter is provided with its own cables which run directly to the batteries. That way, the current supplied to the inverter doesn't use the same cables as the rest of the trailer, so there is no capacity problem. The exception is the short cable the connect the two batteries together - that one carries all of the current flowing through the batteries, so it should be increased in gauge if an inverter is installed; I don't know if it is or not.

The net result is that wiring preparation for an inverter would just be heavier cable between the batteries, and that is easy to upgrade whenever you want.
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Old 10-16-2016, 04:00 AM   #60
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Alan already provided the correction, but I'm curious...
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotfishtacos View Post
" When electricity flows through a wire, it mostly flows on the surface of the wire, not through the middle. This effect is more pronounced on high frequency AC than it is on DC or low frequency AC. This means that a "wire" of a given size that made up of many smaller strands can carry more power than a solid wire - simply because the stranded wire has more surface area. This is one reason why battery cables in your car and welding cables are made up of many very fine strands of smaller wire - it allows them to safely carry more power with less of that power being dissipated as heat. However, this "skin" effect is not as pronounced in a typical 12V DC automotive application, and the wire and cable used there is stranded for flexibility reasons.
Where did this come from? It's certainly misleading, since it completely misses the point that skin effect is non-existent (not just "less pronounced") at DC. It also gives skin effect as the reason for stranding in specific cases where it is absolutely not a factor, so the author certainly doesn't understand the subject. It would be helpful to know what source to ignore.

I tried a Google search for the statement "When electricity flows through a wire, it mostly flows on the surface of the wire, not through the middle", but at least the first few matches are based on some of the key words, and are actually correct descriptions rather than this bad one.

By the way, a bunch of strands bundled together are not even useful at high frequency where skin effect does matter.
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