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Old 01-20-2018, 12:16 AM   #1
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About to nix inverter, am I crazy?

I see three opinions on the inverter option. 1. one of our favorite options 2. you can run the microwave briefly if needed, which can be a blessing (the lackadaisical battery users) 3. running anything 120v off of battery power for any reasonable amount of time will drain the battery so quickly it's not worth doing at all (the electrical wizards).

I've waffled alot on this. We hope to do as much boondocking as possible, and as such, we hope to be as energy independent as possible. We do have a toddler, so we can only sacrifice so much comfort. We want to make the camping experience as cushy as possible bc we want to head out often without hookups, and we will often be travelling for business, so we have to have it somewhat "together," whatever that means.

We are not big tech people. We have our phones, and computers (which we plan on getting 12v chargers for), and we'll probably get a 12v fan and radio. Maybe even a 12v vacuum if we want to get fancy (we have a boy and 2 dogs). A AA charger for rechargeable batteries might be neat for travel, I don't know if you can get that in 12v. We can buy alot of 12v appliances for $950 canadian and guarantee less power draw on our battery.

I would love a microwave for the hard days of travelling or unexpected things where a quick heat-up would be a nice comfort with a child, but let's face it, it's not a necessity. I would like the option to curl my hair for 5 min with a curling iron, or heat up some curlers maybe once a week, but again, I can live without it.

Is the battery draw really so great with 120v use on the battery that it's not worth doing? I feel like if it was such a strain to use it, it wouldn't be an option, and no-one would consider it a favorite option. Could I not run my lights, the microwave once or twice a day, and a few 12v appliances on an average charge without depleting?

On the other hand, what do you really need the inverter for? Doesn't it make more sense to buy 12v appliances to get more time out of your batteries? What am I not thinking of that I'm just going to want 120v power for?

(disclaimer, my brain doesn't do electrical easily. I've once updated every light switch in a house and none of them worked, but i got the outlets installed right! )

EDIT: I have read some on "12volt Side of Life," which is super helpful, and I can estimate that we can safely get 70+ amp hours/day on our 160w solar panel. I just wonder, am I considering the inverter just so i can use the microwave, or is there something else?
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Old 01-20-2018, 02:01 AM   #2
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We use one of those cheap 150w inverters that plug into the cigarette lighter plug and we can charge one Macbook pro at a time with that. I'm not sure what laptops you are charging, but a Macbook uses 18.5vdc for charging, so a rectifier would be needed to up the voltage for charging from a 12v battery. I should look into that because it will certainly be more efficient than our inverter.

BTW, don't make the mistake of using an inverter to get 120vac and then plugging one of those USB chargers that you use at home into it. That converts 12vdc to 120vac and then back to 5vdc which is a double conversion loss. Just get a 12v USB charger that plugs into the cigarette lighter (or hardwire it) to charge your phones if you need more than the standard USB charger that's already included.

You can watch your battery voltage with the solar controller, so running it down shouldn't happen. Remove the load and let it rest for a minute to get a true voltage reading.
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Old 01-20-2018, 02:16 AM   #3
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The charger that I use for my MacBook is dedicated to the MacBook. Plugs into the 12V outlet and into my computer. It was not cheap.
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Old 01-20-2018, 02:30 AM   #4
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Fortunately we both have PCs, and DC chargers seem fairly easy to come by at first glance, although it may be tougher for my ancient laptop.

Alot of the 12v appliances I come across seem sub-par when compared to 120v. I've read happy reports here with 12v fans, what about radios?
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Old 01-20-2018, 02:42 AM   #5
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My Sirius satellite radio has 12V or 120V capability. For AM/FM I have a Sony that runs forever on two AA batteries. I have a Sangean personal radio that I listen to with an earbud that runs on AAA batteries. I have a Bluetooth speaker that I can connect to any of those devices with an aux. cord if they don't have Bluetooth. I charge it through a cheap inverter.
There are a multitude of ways.
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Old 01-20-2018, 02:52 AM   #6
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My Sirius satellite radio has 12V or 120V capability. For AM/FM I have a Sony that runs forever on two AA batteries. I have a Sangean personal radio that I listen to with an earbud that runs on AAA batteries. I have a Bluetooth speaker that I can connect to any of those devices with an aux. cord if they don't have Bluetooth. I charge it through a cheap inverter.
There are a multitude of ways.
I hadn't thought of Bluetooth. Is it possible to use Bluetooth speakers with the ETI stereo option? I hadn't considered getting it as we don't need a DVD player, but if it's a good installed DC unit that can use Bluetooth speakers outside I may reconsider. If the option you have is good, I may just go without for now and put an AM/FM battery powered radio on my Christmas list
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Old 01-20-2018, 02:58 AM   #7
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If you read my signature, you will see that I'm not a fan of stuff that requires holes. When it comes to audio and video, technology advances month to month. I don't want to create a hole for something that I no longer need or use.
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Old 01-20-2018, 04:50 AM   #8
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Take a look at your lifestyle and how you want to live in your camper. At home, we discovered that we used a microwave at almost every meal. It just made sense to include one in our camper. My wife enjoys serving up a hot lunch when we are just stopping at a rest area.
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Old 01-20-2018, 04:54 AM   #9
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Take a look at your lifestyle and how you want to live in your camper. At home, we discovered that we used a microwave at almost every meal. It just made sense to include one in our camper. My wife enjoys serving up a hot lunch when we are just stopping at a rest area.
Peter
I'm the same. I'm a big cooker, which also means I reheat alot. I grew up without one so I know it can be done. With a toddler though, everything takes forever and a microwave helps speed things up!

Can you guys microwave on inverter and still do well otherwise on battery power?
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Old 01-20-2018, 05:54 AM   #10
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I see three opinions on the inverter option. 1. one of our favorite options 2. you can run the microwave briefly if needed, which can be a blessing (the lackadaisical battery users) 3. running anything 120v off of battery power for any reasonable amount of time will drain the battery so quickly it's not worth doing at all (the electrical wizards).

I've waffled alot on this. We hope to do as much boondocking as possible, and as such, we hope to be as energy independent as possible. We do have a toddler, so we can only sacrifice so much comfort. We want to make the camping experience as cushy as possible bc we want to head out often without hookups, and we will often be travelling for business, so we have to have it somewhat "together," whatever that means.

We are not big tech people. We have our phones, and computers (which we plan on getting 12v chargers for), and we'll probably get a 12v fan and radio. Maybe even a 12v vacuum if we want to get fancy (we have a boy and 2 dogs). A AA charger for rechargeable batteries might be neat for travel, I don't know if you can get that in 12v. We can buy alot of 12v appliances for $950 canadian and guarantee less power draw on our battery.

I would love a microwave for the hard days of travelling or unexpected things where a quick heat-up would be a nice comfort with a child, but let's face it, it's not a necessity. I would like the option to curl my hair for 5 min with a curling iron, or heat up some curlers maybe once a week, but again, I can live without it.

Is the battery draw really so great with 120v use on the battery that it's not worth doing? I feel like if it was such a strain to use it, it wouldn't be an option, and no-one would consider it a favorite option. Could I not run my lights, the microwave once or twice a day, and a few 12v appliances on an average charge without depleting?

On the other hand, what do you really need the inverter for? Doesn't it make more sense to buy 12v appliances to get more time out of your batteries? What am I not thinking of that I'm just going to want 120v power for?

(disclaimer, my brain doesn't do electrical easily. I've once updated every light switch in a house and none of them worked, but i got the outlets installed right! )

EDIT: I have read some on "12volt Side of Life," which is super helpful, and I can estimate that we can safely get 70+ amp hours/day on our 160w solar panel. I just wonder, am I considering the inverter just so i can use the microwave, or is there something else?
Quote:
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I hadn't thought of Bluetooth. Is it possible to use Bluetooth speakers with the ETI stereo option? I hadn't considered getting it as we don't need a DVD player, but if it's a good installed DC unit that can use Bluetooth speakers outside I may reconsider. If the option you have is good, I may just go without for now and put an AM/FM battery powered radio on my Christmas list
First off, you indicated you plan to boondock frequently. To me, that implies some remote area. Second, your home is listed as Lafayette, LA. Although I love Cajun food and music, Lafayette and any place around it can get as hot as......., well, you know where. There are times when you will find having A/C is far more desirable than using a microwave. So will you go to campgrounds when it is hot so that you have hook-ups.?

You do not need a 12v vacuum. While “nice” to have, any fiberglass trailer is small and can be cleaned using a dustpan/brush.
I’m not sure about the stereo ETI is now using, but Amazon sells small Bluetooth adapters (@ $30) that can be used to make a 12v automotive stereo do whatever you wish. But you can use a smart phone or an iPod (or its equivalent) to stream music to a Bluetooth speaker.

If you really want to run the microwave and stay cool on those warm southern nights AND will be boondocking, I would suggest you get a small generator (Honda/Yamaha) and take battery cycling out of the picture. You can buy a standalone inverter for much less than the built-in system, but if you do so, you will need to talk to Reace about beefed up wiring. The wiring ETI uses on its 12v outlets will NOT handle an inverter much larger than 100-200 watts. To me, the real question is “do you want to use the microwave as well as sleep comfortably out there in the boondocks?”
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Old 01-20-2018, 09:18 AM   #11
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We microwave a lot at home but mostly just to warm things up quickly. We don't use it for cooking. After carrying around the microwave in our 5.0 (inside a cupboard) and realizing we hardly used it I finally took it out last year and use the cupboard space more efficiently now.

I think if ordering a new trailer we'd get the 2x6v batteries but no inverter. The only thing we really need power for is a CPAP (24v) and I just ordered a DC to DC converter for it.

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Old 01-20-2018, 09:49 AM   #12
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I’d avoid an all or nothing approach to AC vs DC appliances, Adrienne. As you and others note, some 12V appliances are junk (eg most coffee pots and curling irons, uh, I hear), so in some cases it may make more sense to run something off an inverter. The most bang for your watt will come from being smart about it and using as little juice as possible without cramping your lifestyle unnecessarily. As a general rule, this means avoid 120V where possible, and avoid certain types of electric appliances altogether, if possible (eg anything that operates on resistance heating). All of this is with the boondocking lifestyle in mind. If you’re plugged in then it’s a free for all, take your Instant Pot.

Regarding the inverter, you indicate a few compelling reasons for you to still get it: you want maximum versatility (inverter will allow you to do things you can’t otherwise), and you possibly want to be able to briefly fire up the microwave at quick stops or for quick reheats. To me this says “get it”.

We have had one in both of our trailers, and it’s an item that we don’t use often (we opted for more pantry space instead of a microwave), but there are times when we wouldn’t do without it, and a few appliances that can’t work without it (for us it’s the electric toothbrush holder, immersion blender, WiFi booster, and sometimes even the Instant Pot, but only if there’s *lots* of sun to refill the batteries with our dual solar panels).

Another consideration is that ETI can add a hard-wired inverter later down the road if you skip it now. But I believe there’s an upcharge in price if you do it that way. Easier to run the wires during the build.

Either way I’m sure you’ll love your trailer. Lots of people find no need for the inverter. But others do. As I said, we don’t use ours daily, but for us it’s one of the options that makes the trailer as versatile as possible.
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Old 01-20-2018, 10:53 AM   #13
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The Escape provided microwave draws around 1.5 amp hours per minute of use. If you order the inverter, you will also have to get the pair of 6V batteries, currently rated at 220 amp hours, half of which is available if you want to be kind to your batteries.

There is no reason you can't occasionally use the microwave for short cooking. I often use mine to cook a frozen meal, typically under 5 minutes. Of course how much you can use the microwave depends on the rest of your usage.

As others have mentioned, heating appliances such as the curling iron or electric curlers can draw quite a bit. Check the wattage rating on the device, do the math to convert to amperage (divide wattage by 120). The battery has to supply 10X the amperage since it is only 12V, so multiply the 120v amperage by 10, then that be the number of hours to get amp hours. If the numbers seem too high, look into a butane curling iron as one possibility.

I do feel you are being optimistic on what you expect to get from your 1 160 watt panel unless you tilt it towards the sun. Flat mounted panels on the roof, particularly during the low angle winter month sun do not make anywhere near their rated outputs. I think you would be safer estimating 45 - 50 amp hours per day, at least during the months of low angle sun.

To me, the advantage of the microwave is having a way to make a quick meal when I'm too lazy or tired to cook on the grill or stove. The good thing is you have a choice. If the batteries are low or the "sun don't shine", you can cook your meals without the microwave. A large part of the reason for me switching from my 17 to a 21 was so I could have a built in microwave even though I rarely use it.
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Old 01-20-2018, 12:37 PM   #14
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If you look in trucking sites there are a lot of 12v items. Even a 12V microwave is available.
12 Volt Microwaves (Power Hunt/Wave Box) at RoadTrucker.com
And camping sites carry things like a 12v blender and coffee makers.
We opted to not get the solar panels as a lot of places we like to go are under shade. We could have picked up a portable panel but decided instead to buy an inverter/generator . That way we can go to sites we like in our state in the summer that do not offer power and not melt. And if a hurricane hits I have a method to keep the fridge and freezer running besides the expensive house generator.
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Old 01-20-2018, 01:15 PM   #15
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Pro inverter

We like our dual 6volt batteries,(which make 12 volts) one 160watt solar panel, and full sized inverter. We use the admittedly modest microwave everyday, but just for heating, not really for cooking.

Curling irons use surprising low wattage, like 75 watts, unlike a hair dryer that uses 750 to 1500 watts. Hair dryers are out, unless you can dry your hair in 1-2 minutes, but straighteners/curlers are fine. Every electical item should list its wattage somewhere on it.

We also try to watch 120 volt TV sometimes, but we often find that if we are away from electical power, we are also away from many TV channels. 12 volt TV's exist, but limit your choices to brands I wasn't familiar with. Most TV's use very little wattage, and could be run off of the small inexpensive 12 volt plug-in inverters that provide 100 to 150 or so watts.

Some Escape owners enjoy going as 12 volt as possible and other enjoy staying as 120 volt as possible.

As far as air conditioning we've elected not to bring a generator, although we have a couple. If it's so hot you need AC, we either find 120 volt power, or we don't camp there. The Escape's ceiling fan uses very little wattage and portable fans can be found in 12 volt or run off the mini inverter, also using very little wattage.

No one will criticize your choice. It's all just personal preference.

One final thought. If you ever sell it, and I were buying a used one, I wouldn't buy one without the large inverter, but that's just one vote.

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Old 01-20-2018, 01:53 PM   #16
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I almost assumed that a butane curling iron was a joke before I decided I'd look it up just to be safe. I am flabbergasted!

Our use for microwaving is quick reheats, not cooking. On one hand I feel like I really should be able to just do without, on the other hand it would be nice!

Scott, the advice to try not to put all eggs in the 12v or 120v basket sounds wise. I guess I was just starting to get excited about saving the big $$$ if we opted out of an inverter. I really don't want to decide to add one later, though. If we'll want it I'd like to get it now. The hassle and cost of adding after production would bum me out! If the cost wasn't so so high, I'd get it in a heartbeat. It just seems like alot for something that can't be used much.

I, too, love my electric pressure cooker (not Instant Pot brand, as they weren't so big yet when I drank the Kool-aid). I'm going to grieve when we take off without it but I suppose I'll get a stovetop one! I'm surprised to hear that you can run yours on battery power!

Jon, why was the built in microwave so much more appealing than having a freestanding one in a cabinet? Was there no space for one in your 17? I've half considered getting the regular cabinet and just sticking a microwave in it so that we could take it out when we wouldn't be using it. Not sure if that's really an issue or not. I'm sure it would really reduce the convenience factor.
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Old 01-20-2018, 02:01 PM   #17
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I'm a little biased. I first introduced the use of a small microwave and an inverter at a major boat show in 1989. Since then every trailer and boat that I have owned has had that combination.

However I didn't go for the ETI unit. I installed an inexpensive 1500 watt modified sine wave inverter. I don't have dual 6 volt batteries but I do have dual 12 volt ones and the microwave is the only time I use both batteries at once.

Heating foods, not cooking is our main use.

While I run my TV on 12 volts we've had numerous 12 volt vacuum cleaners over the years and none have come close to being as good as the 110 volt Shark.

So you're not burning a major bridge if you don't get the ETI unit at the time of purchase.

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Old 01-20-2018, 02:36 PM   #18
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Interestingly, I use curling iron butane cartridges in the Thermocell. They are the same thing and a whole lot less expensive than the Thermocell branded ones are.
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Old 01-20-2018, 02:37 PM   #19
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We like our dual 6volt batteries,(which make 12 volts) one 160watt solar panel, and full sized inverter. We use the admittedly modest microwave everyday, but just for heating, not really for cooking.

Curling irons use surprising low wattage, like 75 watts, unlike a hair dryer that uses 750 to 1500 watts. Hair dryers are out, unless you can dry your hair in 1-2 minutes, but straighteners/curlers are fine. Every electical item should list its wattage somewhere on it.

We also try to watch 120 volt TV sometimes, but we often find that if we are away from electical power, we are also away from many TV channels. 12 volt TV's exist, but limit your choices to brands I wasn't familiar with. Most TV's use very little wattage, and could be run off of the small inexpensive 12 volt plug-in inverters that provide 100 to 150 or so watts.

Some Escape owners enjoy going as 12 volt as possible and other enjoy staying as 120 volt as possible.

As far as air conditioning we've elected not to bring a generator, although we have a couple. If it's so hot you need AC, we either find 120 volt power, or we don't camp there. The Escape's ceiling fan uses very little wattage and portable fans can be found in 12 volt or run off the mini inverter, also using very little wattage.

No one will criticize your choice. It's all just personal preference.

One final thought. If you ever sell it, and I were buying a used one, I wouldn't buy one without the large inverter, but that's just one vote.

Bill
Bill, I think you've swung us. One of the tipping points that is allowing us to feel safe buying the Escape is resale. I bet you're not alone in your opinion of not wanting to buy without it, and that alone may be good enough to tip the scales. Ron makes a great point about installing aftermarket options, but for us as a young family I think it would be a hassle for us to try and get that done.

As far as AC, we're realistic about living in South Louisiana. It's hot and humid a huge part of the year. If we camp here spring through fall we'll need hookups, not much exception. Our plan is to travel anyway, so camping locally will likely be the exception. We may get a generator ultimately for when we can hide away from humanity and not bother anyone with it, but that's not a decision to make today.

For monitoring battery use, we'd want to stop the microwave if we hit a certain charge level in the battery, right? Where's that line that we should avoid dipping under?

I'm going to take a peek at the 12v microwaves mentioned earlier, even just to see if that can really work!
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Old 01-20-2018, 02:41 PM   #20
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Interestingly, I use curling iron butane cartridges in the Thermocell. They are the same thing and a whole lot less expensive than the Thermocell branded ones are.
Carl, I'm a mosquito delicacy apparently. Do you find this works? Ultimately we'll get a screen room, but I've wondered about how much mosquitoes will hamper the fun once we leave South Louisiana.
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