Insulation/thermal windows

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

I'm guessing that Hehr knows a thing or two about making windows and application of same.

Well, the ones in my daughter's 1976 Trillium certainly attest to this. I replaced a few wear components which are still available, and they are now working like new again.

[freespirit]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

I am missing the point of concern with these windows in the Escape. I am not following what the issue could possibly be with a fibreglass shell. I'm sorry, but to me anyway, it seems we are just fishing for something to worry about. Hehr has been working with Escape for some time now, as well I completely trust Reace knows what he is doing.

certainly hope so..especially now that Escape has apparently discontinued without notice (other than a web page update) that the previous option still on the build sheet of Extra Insulation AND Thermal Windows (NOT Frameless) is no longer available...
some campers may have put a deposit on order for an Escape having been assured this option was going to be available....

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by freespirit

certainly hope so..especially now that Escape has apparently discontinued without notice (other than a web page update) that the previous option still on the build sheet of Extra Insulation AND Thermal Windows (NOT Frameless) is no longer available...
some campers may have put a deposit on order for an Escape believing this was going to be available....

That option was in my build sheet. Just not the non insulated sliders.

[Greg A]

Originally Posted by freespirit

the question was ...does anybody know a mfg other than Escape that uses a frameless window in a SINGLE HULL Molded fiberglass trailer?

To answer your question, the only one I'm aware of is Happier Camper. For those of us at Quartzsite Gathering last year we got to meet the owners and see the units. They started production with frameless and went back to sliders after trailers got out in the wild.
I'm not aware of any of the other molded manufacturers using them, but I'm sure Hehr is pursuing them.
Can't see Scamp going to those, they are slow to make any changes in their models.

[Patandlinda]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

Window opening size is not the sole factor used when determining window ventilation . Window design has a large effect. An awning and a casement window are basically the same window just oriented differently. Casement windows allows much better air flow than an awning window . The assumption that because the new frame less , thermopane windows that Escape is now using has a larger ventillation opening , that ventillation will automatically improve is a false assumption

When Escape starting using the new frameless windows, we did a real world test , siting in heat, in a new RV . There was no air movement with frameless windows like we are use to with the sliders . Can't see how air will go up in opening . The best was in a new RV and the gasket was stuck to the glass . Have found that on our Escape window on trailer when it hasn't been opened for awhile it is stuck . In the new RV was afraid the turn knob was going to be broken . Took two of us to get it open . Have seen others complain about the glass being stuck to gasket . If I had these frameless windows I would open them all every once in awhile and put something on the gasket to keep it pliable . We do that with the Escape window now . Pat

[Kountrykamper]

They were on our build sheet too. I would say if you have them ordered you will get them. Going forward from here they will no longer be available to order.

[freespirit]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

That option was in my build sheet. Just not the non insulated sliders.

this campers updated build sheet from ETI as of Dec 28,2016 still has it listed as available..

Extra Insulation & Thermal Windows (Rock Shield Non-Thermal) $1000.00

Extra Insulation & Frame-less Thermal Windows (Includes Opening Rear Window, Frt. Window with Rock Shield Non-Thermal) $1500.00

hopefully the frameless window will prove to be a reliable application over time...

[Patandlinda]

Originally Posted by Patandlinda

When Escape starting using the new frameless windows, we did a real world test , siting in heat, in a new RV . There was no air movement with frameless windows like we are use to with the sliders . Can't see how air will go up in opening . The best was in a new RV and the gasket was stuck to the glass . Have found that on our Escape window on trailer when it hasn't been opened for awhile it is stuck . In the new RV was afraid the turn knob was going to be broken . Took two of us to get it open . Have seen others complain about the glass being stuck to gasket . If I had these frameless windows I would open them all every once in awhile and put something on the gasket to keep it pliable . We do that with the Escape window now . Pat

Was thinking the thermoplastic windows used on RV's could be for a reason . Glass can get very cold or hot as opposed to the thermoplastic . Might be the reason for the sticking gasket to glass . Pat

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

I am missing the point of concern with these windows in the Escape. I am not following what the issue could possibly be with a fibreglass shell. I'm sorry, but to me anyway, it seems we are just fishing for something to worry about. Hehr has been working with Escape for some time now, as well I completely trust Reace knows what he is doing.

I would think that the metal frame of a standard RV window would add rigidity to the window and that rigidity may be required when installed in a single wall fiberglass trailer since the walls flex.
Since the new thermal window is frameless is the structural integrity of the window sufficient to maintain a proper seal over time and travel.
We have several friends who have purchased new trailers recently .
The trailers have frameless windows and they have experienced
numerous window leaks . In fact one trailer went back to the factory to repair the window leaks.
Whether the leaks were caused by improper installation or by poor window design , I have no way of knowing.
I fully understand freespirit's concern and his desire to not be a guinea pig .
I believe Escape does everything in their power to build a guality trailer but even Escape make mistakes on occasion or has been deceived by their suppliers.

[freespirit]

Originally Posted by Greg A

To answer your question, the only one I'm aware of is Happier Camper. For those of us at Quartzsite Gathering last year we got to meet the owners and see the units. They started production with frameless and went back to sliders after trailers got out in the wild.
I'm not aware of any of the other molded manufacturers using them, but I'm sure Hehr is pursuing them.
Can't see Scamp going to those, they are slow to make any changes in their models.

thank you for the info.

[cpaharley2008]

I routinely apply "303 Protectant" to the rubber gasket on the MaxxFan which sticks as well as my window gaskets to keep all of them pliable. Did the same to my sliders.

[thoer]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

I routinely apply "303 Protectant" to the rubber gasket on the MaxxFan which sticks as well as my window gaskets to keep all of them pliable. Did the same to my sliders.

Good maintenance method Jim. My sliders used to stick routinely when in storage if I didn't do the same.

[cpaharley2008]

Just like Escape went to bat for us in 2015 and got Dometic to replace the refrigerator, I have full faith in Reace's decision on these Hehr windows and I feel Escape will handle any issues similarly to the Dometic one, to keep the customer happy.

[freespirit]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

I would think that the metal frame of a standard RV window would add rigidity to the window and that rigidity may be required when installed in a single wall fiberglass trailer since the walls flex.
Since the new thermal window is frameless is the structural integrity of the window sufficient to maintain a proper seal over time and travel.
We have several friends who have purchased new trailers recently .
The trailers have frameless windows and they have experienced
numerous window leaks . In fact one trailer went back to the factory to repair the window leaks.
Whether the leaks were caused by improper installation or by poor window design , I have no way of knowing.
I fully understand Free Spirits concern and his desire to not be a guinea pig .
I believe Escape does everything in their power to build a guilty trailer but even Escape make mistakes on occasion.

precisely..at least one other camper understands the "application" concern..the construction of the wall window framing is completely different in an Escape...and unproven over time for the frameless...in recent 2017 pics it is wood pieces fiberglassed to the inside of maybe 1/8" thick FLEXIBLE fiberglass hull to give it some thickness and rigidity for the frameless window. ...is the wood framing sealed against moisture/water leaks?...is framing and/or material choice adequate?.....will the "design" be adequate over time?..who knows...hopefully it will.
granted this same Escape window framing is used on the slider type too..but the frameless window glass seal type is different and may depend on more wall construction rigidity to perform correctly over time...and perhaps a framing material not subject to issues with moisture.

[cpaharley2008]

Freespirit,
Since you recently joined you may want to read some of the older posts from earlier years on the Dometic refrigerator and how Escape handled the issue. They stand by their customers.

http://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f2...ough-5343.html

[Greg A]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Just like Escape went to bat for us in 2015 and got Dometic to replace the refrigerator, I have full faith in Reace's decision on these Hehr windows and I feel Escape will handle any issues similarly to the Dometic one, to keep the customer happy.

I agree. The good thing is if they inherently have too many issues they are supposed to be the same size openings and can be retrofitted to previous models. They should work out, but again, need about two years of them being in the wild to know the answers to these questions.

[thoer]

freespirit, I think you will find that there are a lot of folks here with a lot of experience, both in RVs and in construction/manufacturing. Not being overly concerned about something that has not been reported as an actual problem, does not necessarily mean than many of us do not understand the application differences you are concerned with.

The reason many of us are now repeat customers, is that we trust Reace both to design and build a quality product, and to stand behind his product if any problems do arise.

[freespirit]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Freespirit,
Since you recently joined you may want to read some of the older posts from earlier years on the Dometic refrigerator and how Escape handled the issue. They stand by their customers.

http://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f2...ough-5343.html

Jim..have read a lot on this forum and don't doubt Escape trying to do its best....hoping the Escape frameless windows have a bit more track record by next year when the build sheet is due and perhaps change to them...a major reason did not move delivery up when given the chance...but the deposit was put down with the understanding of what was on the build sheet and emails from Escape that the trailer could be ordered with the Extra Insulation and Thermal Slider option...and as it currently is listed on this campers as of yet not completed build sheet received from ETI on Dec 28,2016.

[freespirit]

Originally Posted by Greg A

I agree. The good thing is if they inherently have too many issues they are supposed to be the same size openings and can be retrofitted to previous models. They should work out, but again, need about two years of them being in the wild to know the answers to these questions.

supposedly the two different type windows do not retrofit the same hole....Thermal Slider OR Frameless..hence the concern...

[freespirit]

Originally Posted by thoer

freespirit, I think you will find that there are a lot of folks here with a lot of experience, both in RVs and in construction/manufacturing. Not being overly concerned about something that has not been reported as an actual problem, does not necessarily mean than many of us do not understand the application differences you are concerned with.

The reason many of us are now repeat customers, is that we trust Reace both to design and build a quality product, and to stand behind his product if any problems do arise.

and this camper appreciates your experience where this trailer newbie has none...but years of product design makes one question almost every engineering design (which can be an issue by itself)...and trailers seem pretty primitive when it comes to manufacturing, design and fabrication IMHO.