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Old 01-29-2015, 05:15 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Rossue View Post
The thermal windows for a 21 adds approximately 100 pounds. They're better at noise reduction than providing any real extra R value for insulation as there is no inert gas between the panes- and there is very little gap to begin with. I haven't noticed any difference in condensation between my single-panes on the 17B vs. the "thermal windows", or dual-pane on the 21.
Wouldn't the test be the double paned windows vs the single paned windows on the same trailer? There are dozens of reports of the single pane front window on the 17 and 19 having condensation while the side and rear windows don't. When I toured Steve and Cynthia's 19 they reported the same thing.
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Old 01-29-2015, 05:58 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Rossue View Post
The thermal windows for a 21 adds approximately 100 pounds. They're better at noise reduction than providing any real extra R value for insulation as there is no inert gas between the panes- and there is very little gap to begin with. I haven't noticed any difference in condensation between my single-panes on the 17B vs. the "thermal windows", or dual-pane on the 21.
So if you get the thermal windows does this bring the total weight of the 21 to 4600 lbs instead of 4500? Or is the GVWR of 4500 include the possibility of getting them?
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Old 01-29-2015, 06:16 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by mk1549 View Post
So if you get the thermal windows does this bring the total weight of the 21 to 4600 lbs instead of 4500? Or is the GVWR of 4500 include the possibility of getting them?
GVWR is not the weight of the trailer at all - with or without dual-pane (thermal) windows. It is the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating, which is the amount which the entire trailer and contents are allowed to weigh. Adding or deleting options or features does not change the GVWR. GVWR depends on the structure and the chassis components (such as the axles and tires); unless those elements are changed, the GVWR does not change.

The base weight of a trailer is the weight without options (about 3050 pounds for an Escape 21'). Since dual-pane windows are optional in any Escape, the base weights do not include them, and so the actual weight of the trailer (what your tug must pull) will be
the base dry weight,
plus the weight of any options or modifications (such as 100 pounds for the extra glass),
plus whatever you have in the tanks (propane, water, and waste),
plus whatever you are carrying in the trailer (your "stuff").
All of that added up is the gross vehicle weight, and it must not exceed the GVWR, which is 4500 pounds for a 21' - whatever type of windows are included. Another way to look at this is that since GVWR is about 1450 pounds more than the base dry weight for a 21', all of your options (such as thermal windows), mods, fluids, and stuff must total no more than 1450 pounds between them (which is typically no problem at all).

Short version of answer:
No, the addition of dual-pane windows does not change the GVWR. Yes, you must still keep the weight of a 21' under 4500 pounds, even if you have dual-pane windows.
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Old 01-29-2015, 06:33 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
GVWR is not the weight of the trailer at all - with or without dual-pane (thermal) windows. It is the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating, which is the amount which the entire trailer and contents are allowed to weigh. Adding or deleting options or features does not change the GVWR. GVWR depends on the structure and the chassis components (such as the axles and tires); unless those elements are changed, the GVWR does not change.

The base weight of a trailer is the weight without options (about 3050 pounds for an Escape 21'). Since dual-pane windows are optional in any Escape, the base weights do not include them, and so the actual weight of the trailer (what your tug must pull) will be
the base dry weight,
plus the weight of any options or modifications (such as 100 pounds for the extra glass),
plus whatever you have in the tanks (propane, water, and waste),
plus whatever you are carrying in the trailer (your "stuff").
All of that added up is the gross vehicle weight, and it must not exceed the GVWR, which is 4500 pounds for a 21' - whatever type of windows are included. Another way to look at this is that since GVWR is about 1450 pounds more than the base dry weight for a 21', all of your options (such as thermal windows), mods, fluids, and stuff must total no more than 1450 pounds between them (which is typically no problem at all).

Short version of answer:
No, the addition of dual-pane windows does not change the GVWR. Yes, you must still keep the weight of a 21' under 4500 pounds, even if you have dual-pane windows.
Thank you Brian

My vehicle has a max tow of 5000 lb I have been somewhat worried about the 4500 GVWR until now thanks to your fabulous explanation I can now concentrate on other things
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:01 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by rbryan4 View Post
Wouldn't the test be the double paned windows vs the single paned windows on the same trailer? There are dozens of reports of the single pane front window on the 17 and 19 having condensation while the side and rear windows don't. When I toured Steve and Cynthia's 19 they reported the same thing.
Probably would have been better to say not significantly more, however still believe there is only a modest difference in both thermal value or preventing condensation. The R value opinion is after a long conversation with ETI's Hehr window rep who has 30 years of industry experience. They are nicer windows than the single pane in terms of latches and general ease of operation. They're just not a silver bullet against the elements IMHO.
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