Ordering our 21...Down to the Details

[BluebirdHazel]

Almost ready to finalize the build sheet for our Escape 21. Due October 5th. The major decisions have been painstakingly made; the flooring, fabric, Formica and a flush mount burner have all been ordered.

Now we're down to the details and they're turning out to be more time consuming and frustrating than the major stuff. Escape will not budge on doing some simple electrical changes.

1. We want a dual coax cable outlet for the TV; they will run the 2nd wire but not hook it up or put in a dual plate.
2. We want a 14-2 wire run to the kitchen so we can operate more than one electrical appliance at a time on that side of the trailer. (Our microwave is on that side.)
3. We want combo USB-110V outlets cover plates in several locations.

Now we can do all this ourselves after the fact, but it would be simpler for Escape to do it. We could order the plates and heavier wire from the building supply store and send it to them. Why are they making these simple changes so darned difficult?!

Has anyone else had these issues? And how did you deal with them? Thanks!

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by BluebirdHazel

Almost ready to finalize the build sheet for our Escape 21. Due October 5th. The major decisions have been painstakingly made; the flooring, fabric, Formica and a flush mount burner have all been ordered.

Now we're down to the details and they're turning out to be more time consuming and frustrating than the major stuff. Escape will not budge on doing some simple electrical changes.

1. We want a dual coax cable outlet for the TV; they will run the 2nd wire but not hook it up or put in a dual plate.
2. We want a 14-2 wire run to the kitchen so we can operate more than one electrical appliance at a time on that side of the trailer. (Our microwave is on that side.)
3. We want combo USB-110V outlets cover plates in several locations.

Now we can do all this ourselves after the fact, but it would be simpler for Escape to do it. We could order the plates and heavier wire from the building supply store and send it to them. Why are they making these simple changes so darned difficult?!

Has anyone else had these issues? And how did you deal with them? Thanks!

I don't consider these "issues". If you know the history of ETI you'll see that they have bent over backwards to allow folks to customize to the nth degree. Way, way more than any other manufacturer. Try ordering a Scamp with different upholstery or Formica.

I think you'll find that the general consensus of forum that purchasers still having the ability to make many changes is head and shoulders above what other manufactures allow.

Ron

[War Eagle]

My guess is that ETI is trying to fill as many orders as possible as quickly as possible, and too many special requests will slow down the production line and delay others receiving their campers at their promised completion date. Just me guessing.

[KarenH]

I'm no electrician so maybe someone like Steve could pipe in here as to the difficulty of making these particular changes. But having been a part of a manufacturing process when I was working, I can say that making any change to a product is a big deal in production flow no matter how minor the change. Multiply that several times for each option for each trailer and it really slows production. I am constantly amazed at how many options ETI will offer to buyers. I know I wouldn't have the patience.

[jxoco]

Originally Posted by BluebirdHazel

2. We want a 14-2 wire run to the kitchen so we can operate more than one electrical appliance at a time on that side of the trailer. (Our microwave is on that side.)
3. We want combo USB-110V outlets cover plates in several locations.

I don't have a 19 but the microwave in mine has a separate circuit.
I have a socket by the sink and it has a GFI socket on it, I think that is electrical code here (meaning in British Columbia where they are built) I don't know if the two a/c receptacles can be separately fed or if there is just one connection.
I could easily rewire that socket, (it depends on your confidence doing that work) but without a split socket GFI it wouldn't be to code.
The only a/c with USB sockets that I have seen do not allow the two a/c receptacles to be separately fed, there is only one a/c connection into the back of them.

It seems to me that the universe is not aligned for these things unless you do it yourself but I am surprised the ETI wouldn't give you a separate circuit for the microwave.

Do any electricians here, with 19's, have solutions ?

[Donna D.]

I have four plugs on that side of the trailer between the door and the dinette. You could have three in a 21. One under the counter extension, one in the center of the kitchen just below the counter and (for me) the third on the same side is just on the other side of the wall on the upper cabinet (I had ETI wire everything for a television there.) I think I could run enough electric appliances... until a fuse blew

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by jxoco

I don't have a 19 but the microwave in mine has a separate circuit.
I have a socket by the sink and it has a GFI socket on it, I think that is electrical code here (meaning in British Columbia where they are built) I don't know if the two a/c receptacles can be separately fed or if there is just one connection.

The sink receptacle is GFCI protected because of it's proximity to the sink. They kill two birds with one stone by also feeding the exterior outlet, downstream from it. The exterior outlet also requires GFCI protection.

In the OP's case a 14/3 wire would do what they want; give two separate circuits but the GFCI would make that less straight forward than it was in the old days when GFCI's weren't required.

Many of us have run all sorts of new wiring and cables from one end to the other. I'd just leave the existing situation in place and, as I have done with an inverter and new panel, add whatever new wiring flicks your switch, so to speak.

Ron

[BluebirdHazel]

Thanks, all.

Yes, I meant to write 14-3 wire to give 2 separate circuits.

We'll be able to rewire ourselves of course and put in USB outlets, but what is the difference in production to run a different wire especially if we'll supply it? ETI is going above and beyond to change things around for us.....flush mount burners, microwave where the oven is, no range hood, extra outlet, custom floor/fabric/Formica and so on. However, a heavier wire and some outlet covers supplied by us can't be done.

I totally agree that Escape is terrific at customizing their trailers and try very hard to satisfy their customers, but that IS how they advertise and and how they sell their product. In spite of these niggly last minute issues, we are very excited to get our 21 and hit the road!

[rubicon327]

Hazel: You never answered back on the other thread. Still wondering how you plan to tow a 21 with a Highlander Hybrid rated at 3500 lbs. Others could provided more specifics, but you will be well over 4000 lbs with a fully loaded trailer. The 3210 lb dry weight listed on ETI's website is with tanks empty and before options. Don't want to see you caught with an inadequate and potentially unsafe tow vehicle.

[War Eagle]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Hazel: You never answered back on the other thread. Still wondering how you plan to tow a 21 with a Highlander Hybrid rated at 3500 lbs. Others could provided more specifics, but you will be well over 4000 lbs with a fully loaded trailer. The 3210 lb dry weight listed on ETI's website is with tanks empty and before options. Don't want to see you caught with an inadequate and potentially unsafe tow vehicle.

For what it's worth, simply adding A/C, solar and two reinforced walls (plus a few other small options like extra lights and switches) had our 2017 21' tipping the scale at 3,620 lbs out the factory door - and that's before we started stocking it with our stuff. Perhaps as important, or more important, is the approximate 420 lb tongue weight (depending on how we load). That's 20% over a 350 lb tongue weight limit.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

The sink receptacle is GFCI protected because of it's proximity to the sink. They kill two birds with one stone by also feeding the exterior outlet, downstream from it. The exterior outlet also requires GFCI protection.

In the OP's case a 14/3 wire would do what they want; give two separate circuits but the GFCI would make that less straight forward than it was in the old days when GFCI's weren't required.

Many of us have run all sorts of new wiring and cables from one end to the other. I'd just leave the existing situation in place and, as I have done with an inverter and new panel, add whatever new wiring flicks your switch, so to speak.

Ron

Escape as most small trailers has a 30 amp 120 VAC service.
Running a 14/3 to the kitchen area would give you two circuits but would overload the neutral . ( The neutral would carry the sum of the loads imposed on the two circuits.) ** NEC definition of multi wire branch circuits **
In my trailer I added a kitchen receptacle (GFCI) on a separate 20 amp circuit (12-2 NM) This allows me to run 2 appliances at the same time in the kitchen. ( IE : Toaster & Coffee Maker )
I cannot speak to how ETI chose their method of wiring or what modifications they are willing to make.
Even if ETI could or was willing to add additional circuits to accomodate their customers demands , the 30 amp service is the limiting factor.

The NEC defines RVs as temporary living shelters for short term use so the code requirements that apply to homes and apartments do not apply to travel trailers.
Electrical Services for homes and apartments are calculated differently than services for RV parks . That's why your home and an RV park may both have a 200 amp single phase service .

[War Eagle]

Another member of this forum recently installed an isolated, stand apart 120V 15 amp supply line from outside to inside (using the components in the links below, I hope they don't mind me sharing) specifically so they could run a dehumidifier inside their camper without having to boot up the entire EMS electrical system and all that that includes. I thought it was a great idea and may well do it myself, but for some reason, the OP caught quite a bit of grief from other forum members (go figure!). Anyway, if someone wants to keep a coffee pot or crock pot or some constant heavy amp draw device going for extended periods of time, but they don't want to tie up a whole circuit for that long, why not add a similar isolated, stand apart 120V 15 amp service line (use a different colored cover plate on a standard outlet or label it appropriately if you like)? When you pull into a camp site with the standard "power bush" (50A, 30A and 15A outlets), plug in your regular 30 amp supply line, then plug in your separate isolated 15 amp supply line (since the power bush can handle 50A, it seems it should be able to handle 30A+15A at the same time). That way you'll have a dedicated 120V 15 amp outlet at your disposal inside your camper without limiting your use of the standard circuits within your camper. Does that make sense? Am I missing something that would make a camper go up in smoke if you do this? We do a similar thing already by plugging in an outside griddle or crock pot straight into the power bush and haven't run into any power problems - yet, anyway. Why not do the same thing but by bringing that extra separate, isolated power supply line inside the camper?

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[skiman]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

Escape as most small trailers has a 30 amp 120 VAC service.
Running a 14/3 to the kitchen area would give you two circuits but would overload the neutral . ( The neutral would carry the sum of the loads imposed on the two circuits.) ** NEC definition of multi wire branch circuits **
In my trailer I added a kitchen receptacle (GFCI) on a separate 20 amp circuit (12-2 NM) This allows me to run 2 appliances at the same time in the kitchen. ( IE : Toaster & Coffee Maker )
I cannot speak to how ETI chose their method of wiring or what modifications they are willing to make.
Even if ETI could or was willing to add additional circuits to accomodate their customers demands , the 30 amp service is the limiting factor.

The NEC defines RVs as temporary living shelters for short term use so the code requirements that apply to homes and apartments do not apply to travel trailers.
Electrical Services for homes and apartments are calculated differently than services for RV parks . That's why your home and an RV park may both have a 200 amp single phase service .

Your point is so well taken. Unlike a home service that has two hot legs, the 30 amp is single phase and both hot legs would originate from the same point. Thus the potential to overload the neutral. On a house service the two legs are out of phase so the neutral current would cancel out.

Perhaps ETI would entertain a separate 14-2 circuit that would not have that problem? As pointed out, they already go beyond anyone else on customization.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by skiman

Your point is so well taken. Unlike a home service that has two hot legs, the 30 amp is single phase and both hot legs would originate from the same point. Thus the potential to overload the neutral. On a house service the two legs are out of phase so the neutral current would cancel out.

Perhaps ETI would entertain a separate 14-2 circuit that would not have that problem? As pointed out, they already go beyond anyone else on customization.

ETI could also offer a choice of a 30 or a 50 amp electrical service as other RV manufacturers do. The 50 amp service by code is allowed to have a greater number of branch circuits so the loads could be split up in a more useful fashion.
I am not sure if a 50 amp service would be of value to most Escape owners and it would make the Escape's wiring more complicated.
A 50 amp service may solve problems for some customers
but may create problems for ETI .Standardized installations are simpler , less prone to mistakes and simplify scheduling.

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by BluebirdHazel

Thanks, all.

Yes, I meant to write 14-3 wire to give 2 separate circuits.

We'll be able to rewire ourselves of course and put in USB outlets, but what is the difference in production to run a different wire especially if we'll supply it? ETI is going above and beyond to change things around for us.....flush mount burners, microwave where the oven is, no range hood, extra outlet, custom floor/fabric/Formica and so on. However, a heavier wire and some outlet covers supplied by us can't be done.

I totally agree that Escape is terrific at customizing their trailers and try very hard to satisfy their customers, but that IS how they advertise and and how they sell their product. In spite of these niggly last minute issues, we are very excited to get our 21 and hit the road!

Using 14/3 to provide 2 separate circuits only works with a 120/240 service; each hot must be on a separate leg so the neutral only carries the difference. If you used the technique on a 120V panel (as is installed in an 30 amp RV) the neutral would carry the sum of the circuits since both hots would be on the same leg, or a possible total of 30 amps, more than allowed (or safe) on #14 wire.

On Edit - Sorry for repeating Steve's & other's posts - I missed the second page of the thread.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Hazel: You never answered back on the other thread...

Hazel responded today in that thread (Hello from Ontario) - see post #27.

[BluebirdHazel]

Thanks so much for your input about the neutral wire. Hubby did some research at the library and you are right. On to Plan B.

[Brian B-P]

Okay, now that split circuit idea is out of the way...

Originally Posted by BluebirdHazel

Escape will not budge on doing some simple electrical changes.
...
...
appliance at a time on that side of the trailer. (Our microwave is on that side.)
3. We want combo USB-110V outlets cover plates in several locations.

Now we can do all this ourselves after the fact, but it would be simpler for Escape to do it.

Hazel, you may think that you can simply replace the receptacle cover plates with ones containing a USB power supply and outlets (or replace the duplex receptacle itself with a simplex receptacle and integrated USB power supply and outlets), but you haven't seen the receptacles which are currently used by Escape. Like many other RVs, and unlike most houses, an Escape now has Self-Contained Devices (SCD); these are receptacles which act as their own box and mount into a panel (such as cabinet face) without a conventional box.

You can't add a different faceplate to them, and they will not accommodate the USB power supply and outlets; you would need to cut off the 120 V AC cable, discard the SCD, and install a new box... then you could install a conventional receptacle and add the USB device, or install a combined receptacle and USB device. The requested change would be a significant to the procedure and materials used by Escape to install the electrical system in the trailer, which is presumably why they are unable to accommodate the request.

A relevant previous discussion:
Replacing 120V outlet with 120V/USB port outlet

[steve dunham]

The use of SCD's have several advantages for the manufacturer , the main reason is that it lowers cost and is cheaper
After 40 years in the electrical trade and repairing many SCD devices , and in an attempt to stay positive I will keep my negative opinion to myself.

[cpaharley2008]

It maybe cheaper but it is the way most trailer manufacturers are going now, progress does sometimes lower costs.