19 or 21??? - Page 12 - Escape Trailer Owners Community

Go Back   Escape Trailer Owners Community > Escape Me | General Topics > General Escape
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 01-07-2016, 02:40 PM   #111
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 9,041
One caution about the data in which Frederick collected and Jon has been managing: tongue weights for trailers used with weigh-distribution (WD) systems are likely wrong. To avoid the need to for multiple weighing steps or any weighing of the tow vehicle, Frederick's method was to get the owner to disconnect the WD, then note the resulting coupler height and measure the axle loads, then later to measure the tongue weight (at the campsite) with coupler at that same height. The result is a correct total, but because the tongue will likely be lower than it is while towing, the distribution between tongue and axles which will not match the distribution while towing: tandem-axle trailers will likely have higher tongue weight in actual use, while single-axle trailers will likely have lower tongue weight in actual use.

Since the 19' and 21' both have tandem axles, any tongue weight values collected by Frederick are likely low for them. Many of the more recent values in the list were collected by the owners using various methods, so they may not have this systematic error, and may have other errors.

None of this changes the fact that the list has valuable information, mostly about the total weight of trailers and their cargo in the state that they are typically used.
__________________

Brian B-P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2016, 02:58 PM   #112
Senior Member
 
thoer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Galesville, Wisconsin
Trailer: 2017 21 "Blue II" & 2017 Highlander XLE (previously 2010 17B "Blue" & 2008 Tacoma)
Posts: 3,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
... tandem-axle trailers will likely have higher tongue weight in actual use, while single-axle trailers will likely have lower tongue weight in actual use.
Brian, my brain may be slow today, I think I understand what you are saying and can visualize it being lower for the single axle, but not why tandem axles would then be heavier?
__________________

__________________
Eric (and Mary who is in no way responsible for anything stupid I post)

SAE Towing Standard "Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance." George Bernard Shaw
thoer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2016, 03:11 PM   #113
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 9,041
Quote:
Originally Posted by thoer View Post
I think I understand what you are saying and can visualize it being lower for the single axle, but now why a tandem axles would then be heavier?
This really isn't obvious - especially since it is opposite from single-axle trailers - so many people are not aware of the issue. If you lower the tongue, the leading axle's suspension must be more compressed (the frame at the leading axle must be lower) while the trailing axle's suspension is less compressed (the frame at the leading axle must be higher) to accommodate the slight nose-down tilt of the trailer. That means the leading axle will carry more load and the trailing axle less. Trailer suspensions are so stiff (they move very little compared to a typical car for the same change in weight) that these small movements make a big difference, and the net result is that the when the tongue drops the trailer's weight is supported more on the leading axle and less on the other axle... and less on the tongue.

Frederick measured this lower tongue load, so actual as-towed values for these WDH-equipped tandems will be higher.

The effect is so strong that I have seen unattached and empty tandem-axle cargo trailers sit with no support under the tongue, and the tongue barely brushing the ground. I dropped off a U-Haul (6'x12' enclosed cargo) once after a rental, and after I unhooked it and drove away, the trailer rolled across the lot - there is no tongue jack on these, so there was no way to hold the tongue up at the normal height., and the lot sloped a bit downhill in the direction the trailer was pointed. Of course you wouldn't do this with your Escape!
Brian B-P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2016, 03:15 PM   #114
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Pensacola, Florida
Trailer: 21' Escape (June 2014)
Posts: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW Cat Owner View Post
How well do you like each other and think you can manage in close quarters for any length of time? My husband and I took one look at the 19 and realized it was too small for us. We're not as skinny as we used to be (only in our dreams) and it was just too cozy for us.

Others can manage just fine, but it wasn't for us. To me that's the main criteria.

Also, since you're in Chilliwack, you're really close to the factory, so you can try both on for size. Pretend like you're camping in it and move around and see how it works for ya.
Yup, same with us. Although we aren't overweight, my wife didn't like the tightness of the central area of the 19. I do think it's layout is better, but the openness of the 21' won out.
Ray N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2016, 07:31 PM   #115
Site Team
 
Donna D.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Portland, Oregon
Trailer: 2014 Escape 5.0 TA
Posts: 6,824
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
Frederick's method was to get the owner to disconnect the WD, then note the resulting coupler height and measure the axle loads, then later to measure the tongue weight (at the campsite) with coupler at that same height.
Ah no. I watched Frederick do his magic at the Oregon Gathering. He measured the tongue height, then had owners disconnect any WDH. Not so surprisingly there were more on Casitas than any other brand.
__________________
Donna D.
Ten Forward
2014 Escape 5.0TA
Donna D. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2016, 08:54 PM   #116
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 9,041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna D. View Post
Ah no. I watched Frederick do his magic at the Oregon Gathering. He measured the tongue height, then had owners disconnect any WDH.
I don't think that's what he said in FiberglassRV, but maybe his method changed or I just misunderstood.

Regardless, this method (measuring the axle load with the tongue at one height, and the tongue weight with the tongue at a different height) will get the right tongue weight but the wrong total weight, because the distribution between tongue and axle will change, so adding one to the other won't give the correct total. In the case of a tandem, the total will be too high (or too low in the case of a single axle).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna D. View Post
... then had owners disconnect any WDH. Not so surprisingly there were more on Casitas than any other brand.
Yes, among single-axle trailers the Casita 17' is unusually proportioned and so unusually front-heavy, driving owners to use WD. The Escape 17' is similarly proportioned, but Reace placed the battery (or batteries) at the rear to keep the tongue weight proportional more reasonable.
Brian B-P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2016, 09:57 PM   #117
Senior Member
 
thoer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Galesville, Wisconsin
Trailer: 2017 21 "Blue II" & 2017 Highlander XLE (previously 2010 17B "Blue" & 2008 Tacoma)
Posts: 3,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
...Regardless, this method (measuring the axle load with the tongue at one height, and the tongue weight with the tongue at a different height) ...
Isn't Donna saying that Frederick was using a method of measuring each with the tongue at the same height?
__________________
Eric (and Mary who is in no way responsible for anything stupid I post)

SAE Towing Standard "Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance." George Bernard Shaw
thoer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2016, 10:17 PM   #118
Senior Member
 
Jim Bennett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Trailer: 2017 Escape 5.0 TA
Posts: 11,933
Holy Bat Crap! Methinks we are splitting hairs here.

If the tongue weight is weighed detached at the same height it is while towing, you will get an accurate tongue weight. This is the actual weight, and if using a WDH of course the effective weight will be different as it is dispersed forward and back from the hitch.

Even if it is not exactly the same height when weighed as when under tow, the difference of an inch or two of tongue height will make only a very small difference in weight. It is not like the axles are rigid. If the tongue is a bit higher when weighed that when towing, sure it will add more force downward on the rear axle, but that effective distance will be less than 10% of the difference in hitch height. Both axles will flex, allowing the distribution of this small weight difference to come close to evening out.

What I am trying to say in this mumble jumble of text, is that the actual weight difference on each axle and the tongue calculated the way Frederick did it will be very, very close in accuracy, so close that any effective error will be insignificant.
__________________
2017 Escape 5.0 TA
2015 Ford F150 Lariat 3.5L EcoBoost
2009 Escape 19 (previous)
“Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.” — Abraham Lincoln
Jim Bennett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2016, 12:53 AM   #119
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 9,041
Yes, I'm talking about small effects on the total weight measurement, but some people seem to assign great importance to this data as "real weights". The effect of height on tongue weight is more significant, and for some people's tugs the hitch weight limit is important.

If you are curious, just measure your tongue weight at a few heights. If, like some members, you have never weighed your trailer, you likely won't bother doing this - that's certainly your choice.
Brian B-P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2016, 12:55 AM   #120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 9,041
Quote:
Originally Posted by thoer View Post
Isn't Donna saying that Frederick was using a method of measuring each with the tongue at the same height?
No, Donna has described a method in which the tongue weight is measured at towing height and the axle weight is measured with the tongue drooping down because the WD system is disconnected. Since most people take a few hundred pounds off the tug's rear suspension with the WD, this can be a significant drop.
__________________

Brian B-P is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off






» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.