4 season capability

[yardsale]

Originally Posted by Dave Walter

There is so much salt used on the highways around here in the winter for ice management that even if my Escape was suitable for four season use, I would park it in the winter. I have a utility trailer on which the steel frame has really become badly corroded due to winter travel. I will save my Escapes for non winter uses.

The painted sections of our frame are hanging in there so far. I had to totally disassemble the stabilizing jacks and repaint this summer due to rust. It is an issue.

[Bill and Earline]

That whole three season/four season thing depends on where you are. On our initial trip home in 2014 we had two consecutive nights in New Mexico and then Texas in mid-November that hit 19F, but above freezing during the day while we traveled. Then on May 22, 2016 (our anniversary) we woke up to 4 inches of unexpected snow near Jasper, AB.
We got all the insulation and double pane window options and felt fine each time. Pulled the water hose in at night for those cold nights.
Get a little electric heater with a decent thermostat so it cycles appropriately, if you have campground electricity. The propane furnace is more than adequate if used.
Keep in mind with a fiberglass, that you'll have to keep the roof vent and a window open a bit or you will definitely have condensation from your breath covering everything.

If you're traveling in really cold weather, some say to run the propane furnace while driving, others say no way.

[Tgent]

Originally Posted by jking1224

In my research, I too was interested in 4 season capability. What I concluded is that NO trailer on the market is truly 4 season capable. Yes, many manufacturers have a “4 season package” or options. But I found no trailer where you can camp in sub freezing temperatures for days on end, without modifying your behavior. You simply HAVE to take measures to function or prevent problems. As has been mentioned in previous responses, there are many things to consider: heat tape wrapping, extra insulation in vulnerable places, skirting the entire trailer, problems dumping tanks, problems with water supply freezes, condensation issues, etc. on and on. As I said, no trailer I found operates trouble free in freezing conditions. So, the compromise is finding something close to your needs and enhancing it and your camping procedures. I chose the Escape (still awaiting delivery) because of the durability to rough roads, build quality, etc. And ETI does offer some add-on options intended for extended use: tank heaters, underbody foam insulation, thermal windows, extra insulation. These will all help with cold weather camping, but will not make it trouble free. You will have to “take precautions”. To my mind, the molded fiberglass and build materials make it more suited to _any_ form of severe duty camping than anything else I could find on the market.

Man, this forum is awesome. This seems to be the consensus here. I was coming to that conclusion and now I can't wait to really see one! I am just curious as I don't live in "salted roads" country, would Rhino lining the frame be good or bad? seems to me it could hold in salt if it got behind it somehow. Especially since the only way to coat the whole frame would be with the body off. And it seems you wouldn't see any effect until it is way too late. But I don't know.

Also on various poster's advice I got in touch with ETI about a local unit. there appears to be a brand new 19 delivered to an owner here in town. Time to make contact and see what you guys already know.

[jking1224]

Originally Posted by float5

You don't consider Bigfoot in recent years to have a four-season trailer? I understood that they claim certain models to be four-season and that people had used them for that.

Escape does not claim to be four-season. The only four-season camping that we expect to do is in Texas or similar. We have the spray foam and heat pads and insulation. It can get pretty cold even in Texas. No way we would be using the water system up north.

For my sticks and bricks home, I do NOTHING different when winter arrives except to change the thermostat setting and move the patio furniture. I flush my toilet the same way, cook my food the same way, take a shower the same way, etc. as I do summer and year round. And stay warm the entire time.

To my mind, a truly 4 season camper would be the same: you use it exactly the same in the summer as in full-on sub-freezing winter. No, the Bigfoot doesn't qualify in my mind. The sewer dump valves can freeze. The water inlets are not heated. People use extra electric heaters, electric blankets, stuff reflectix in the windows, skylights, storage bays (which are not heated), surround the trailer with skirting.

You have to change your behavior, take precautions, provide extra insulation, do things differently, and bottom line, expect to be a bit cold.

Does the Bigfoot (and other brands) have features that "help"? Yes. The Bigfoot is more capable than many. As is the Arctic Fox, Nash, and others. And I consider the Escape, with the various options, to be pretty capable. I would take the Escape to a ski resort that offers electric hookups for the weekend. But I would expect to be a bit cold and I would have to alter my water use and I would not expect to dump tanks in that weather. So a weekend would be fine. If I camp in a mountainous park and un-expectedly wake up to 6 inches of new snow on the ground, I won't freak out. But I'd hope it warms during the day, expect to change some things and expect some problems. And if the snow continues for more than a couple days, me and my Escape will have to bug out.

[Dave Walter]

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

The shoulder seasons probably are better than Winter because my little dog hates going out in the snow.

I have the extra insulation but don't have the under trailer foam except for what I added myself.

My view is the trailer's usable 365 days a year. You just have to make adjustments for the season and not expect that it'll be as comfortable as a nice summer day.



Ron

But the question Ron, is whether or not the kayak on the roof of your truck is also setup for 4 season camping. I used to do a lot of ice fishing during winter months, but as I got older it has become more and more difficult to chop a big enough hole in the ice to float my canoe.

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by Dave Walter

But the question Ron, is whether or not the kayak on the roof of your truck is also setup for 4 season camping.

Absolutely, it was in Winter there, Spring by Southern California and in Summer by the time it was in Baja.

Ron

[stormforce]

mmmm to foam or not to foam the 1.000$ question
i have been pondering this very option as well ! i think i will leave it out for a few trips ,, then when i,m sure no issues arise with plumbing ,, wiring ,, ect ,, ill do the same as some have done,, and do it myself with the foam board

[float5]

Originally Posted by jking1224

For my sticks and bricks home, I do NOTHING different when winter arrives except to change the thermostat setting and move the patio furniture. I flush my toilet the same way, cook my food the same way, take a shower the same way, etc. as I do summer and year round. And stay warm the entire time.

To my mind, a truly 4 season camper would be the same: you use it exactly the same in the summer as in full-on sub-freezing winter. No, the Bigfoot doesn't qualify in my mind. The sewer dump valves can freeze. The water inlets are not heated. People use extra electric heaters, electric blankets, stuff reflectix in the windows, skylights, storage bays (which are not heated), surround the trailer with skirting.

You have to change your behavior, take precautions, provide extra insulation, do things differently, and bottom line, expect to be a bit cold.

Does the Bigfoot (and other brands) have features that "help"? Yes. The Bigfoot is more capable than many. As is the Arctic Fox, Nash, and others. And I consider the Escape, with the various options, to be pretty capable. I would take the Escape to a ski resort that offers electric hookups for the weekend. But I would expect to be a bit cold and I would have to alter my water use and I would not expect to dump tanks in that weather. So a weekend would be fine. If I camp in a mountainous park and un-expectedly wake up to 6 inches of new snow on the ground, I won't freak out. But I'd hope it warms during the day, expect to change some things and expect some problems. And if the snow continues for more than a couple days, me and my Escape will have to bug out.

We do take measures for the heat and cold where we live in Texas and at the second house in Iowa such as window coverings and caulking on some windows. They are then removed for the other season. We also have foundation covers for one season at one place. Certainly many people do the same.

I do not consider an Escape in any way equal to a Bigfoot for winter camping with our tank situation and minimal insulation. When you say you would alter your water use, I assume that you mean not to have running water. And even two propane tanks are not going to last that long if the furnace has to be constantly on in very cold weather. In such weather, one may need an electric heater in addition.

Of course, one person's winter and idea of cold weather is not another's. You probably know what you need to be comfortable enough wherever you will go since you have looked into all of this. Good luck and give us a report when you have been out there in the freezing cold!

[Moaboy]

In the 19 the black tank is inside which is why no heat pad is offered for it? I think it is under the driver side bench. The optional heat pads r on the water tank and gray tank in the rear of the trailer. I have the heat pads, extra insulation, spray on under body insulation and double pane windows. I've only camped in the 20's on a trip to Alaska and I was very comfortable. Having said that, I consider my 19 to be a good 3 season trailer which I would only use in a winter situation if I had electricity and use "dry."

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Moaboy

In the 19 the black tank is inside which is why no heat pad is offered for it? I think it is under the driver side bench.

The black tank is always directly under the toilet and extending into whatever cabinet is directly adjacent - which is the street-side dinette seat in the case of the 19'. Yes, it is on top of the trailer floor, and so not exposed directly to cold outside air.

[Wunfiddy]

Escape is the only one between Casita, Scamp, Bigfoot, and Oliver that has layouts my wife and I like.
From the OP description of use and where and when, I'd guess he could dry camp without much issue, but should probably not use bathroom or water pumps.
-5 to -20 Celsius overnight isn't unusual in the areas he listed during typical hunting seasons.

To the Texans who comment... What kind of night time temps do you see there?? Feel free to reply in degrees F or C

[yardsale]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

The black tank is always directly under the toilet and extending into whatever cabinet is directly adjacent - which is the street-side dinette seat in the case of the 19'. Yes, it is on top of the trailer floor, and so not exposed directly to cold outside air.

To reiterate, the weak leak in the functionality of both black and grey tanks in below freezing temps is not the tanks but the dump valves which Escape does nothing to protect from freezing. You can't dump in these temps.

One significant workaround we are considering is installing skirting around the trailer and adding a space heater in that space. I have heard of 30 degree F. temp rises with this setup. This option confines you to a campground with shore power of course.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by yardsale

To reiterate, the weak leak in the functionality of both black and grey tanks in below freezing temps is not the tanks but the dump valves which Escape does nothing to protect from freezing. You can't dump in these temps.

Yardsale: In the "How cold can I go?" thread you said, "Even if you flush with pink stuff, it turns into a thick slurry at those temps and will not flow along that pipe so you may not be able to dump as that slurry blocks the warmer black water from flowing to the dump valve."

Most RV antifreeze that is readily available is rated -50F BURST and only +12F before it starts freezing. It sounds like you have been down to -23F. Especially considering the dilution in a black tank have you considered using -100F BURST antifreeze which is rated at -60F before freezing? Even with some dilution you may still be flowing at the coldest temperatures you encounter. It is not as readily available and is more expensive. Based on the freeze points it appears to be about 60% propylene glycol by volume versus about 25% for the typical -50F burst stuff. Just some food for thought.

www.carid.com/camco/camco-winter-ban-100-antifreeze-368981296.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrvTMrqmO1wIVj7bAC h3-Cgp3EAQYASABEgI7CvD_BwE

[richardr]

Originally Posted by yardsale

To reiterate, the weak leak in the functionality of both black and grey tanks in below freezing temps is not the tanks but the dump valves which Escape does nothing to protect from freezing. You can't dump in these temps.

One significant workaround we are considering is installing skirting around the trailer and adding a space heater in that space. I have heard of 30 degree F. temp rises with this setup. This option confines you to a campground with shore power of course.

I'm wondering about installing a second black tank valve right where the pipe exits the floor of the Escape below the bed (on the 21). That way the black pipe would be empty during cold weather. Has anyone done this?

[paulk]

Originally Posted by richardr

I'm wondering about installing a second black tank valve right where the pipe exits the floor of the Escape below the bed (on the 21). That way the black pipe would be empty during cold weather. Has anyone done this?

Undoubtedly, it would help, but in cold weather there will be heat loss at the valve unless you cover the valve itself with insulation, but you don't want to do that with permanent foam since the valve has bolts on it that allow it to be serviced/replaced (I don't know how often this needs to be done). To solve this you could wrap the valve with some kind of insulation blanket (fleece potentially with a wind stop barrier) that would be removable. Even then I'd worry that the air inside the empty pipe would get below freezing and possibly freeze any liquid on the opposite side of the valve. You'd want to insulate the remaining pipe to combat that.

But in the end, I don't know for sure how effective all of the above would be since it depends on how fast heat escapes through any part of the pipe that you don't insulate, and how insulative your blanket is, and a lot of other factors.

The heated skirting yardsale has been talking about is the only really effective solution IMHO.

For shorter trips you can also use higher concentrations of propylene glycol as mentioned by rubicon (100% propylene glycol is also available), which should protect your black tank valve and pipe when mixed with...

Here's a handy chart with freezing temperatures vs percentage of propylene glycol:
http://www.aquahot.com/FAQs.aspx

[yardsale]

Originally Posted by richardr

I'm wondering about installing a second black tank valve right where the pipe exits the floor of the Escape below the bed (on the 21). That way the black pipe would be empty during cold weather. Has anyone done this?

I talked to my mechanic about this and was told he didn't think there was enough room to install one. I think it might help if you could do it.

[War Eagle]

I'm coming to this discussion late, and I'm not sure how long a stretch the OP is hoping to camp out, but what if you went ahead and hooked your camper's sewer drain directly to a large (42 gallon?) sewage tote and then made a fitted little heated box to set the tote on (simple 120V AC heating pad like my grandmother sat on when her legs hurt). Then you could even throw a blanket or canvas tarp over the tote to help hold the heat in the tote, or skirt around just the tote, hot box and connected drain pipe. I'm thinking the heating pad would keep the contents of the tote from freezing (without melting the tote?), and the warmed air within the tote would rise up into the drain pipe(s) to help keep the exposed part warm enough that waste wouldn't freeze when flushed down the drain. Warm air rising might result in a little more odor when you flush. Not sure. So what all could go wrong? I think this would probably work better in our EggCamper where it's a straight shot from the toilet bowl opening down into the drain pipe compared to the Escape 21' where the toilet bowl opening is on the passenger side, and the tank drains out the driver side. The water you need in the black tank to help liquefy solids would more quickly fill the tote. Maybe you'd need a couple totes to swap out, let one mostly fill then remove and let freeze to later thaw and dump when you get back home. Starting to sound more complicated and expensive than I first thought. I need to stop and think about this some more....

[paulk]

Originally Posted by War Eagle

I'm coming to this discussion late, and I'm not sure how long a stretch the OP is hoping to camp out, but what if you went ahead and hooked your camper's sewer drain directly to a large (42 gallon?) sewage tote and then made a fitted little heated box to set the tote on (simple 120V AC heating pad like my grandmother sat on when her legs hurt). Then you could even throw a blanket or canvas tarp over the tote to help hold the heat in the tote, or skirt around just the tote, hot box and connected drain pipe. I'm thinking the heating pad would keep the contents of the tote from freezing (without melting the tote?), and the warmed air within the tote would rise up into the drain pipe(s) to help keep the exposed part warm enough that waste wouldn't freeze when flushed down the drain. Warm air rising might result in a little more odor when you flush. Not sure. So what all could go wrong? I think this would probably work better in our EggCamper where it's a straight shot from the toilet bowl opening down into the drain pipe compared to the Escape 21' where the toilet bowl opening is on the passenger side, and the tank drains out the driver side. The water you need in the black tank to help liquefy solids would more quickly fill the tote. Maybe you'd need a couple totes to swap out, let one mostly fill then remove and let freeze to later thaw and dump when you get back home. Starting to sound more complicated and expensive than I first thought. I need to stop and think about this some more....

Might want to wrap a heated blanket around the pipe instead. Same amount of heat possible, but less total surface area for the heat to escape.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by War Eagle

Maybe you'd need a couple totes to swap out, let one mostly fill then remove and let freeze to later thaw and dump when you get back home. Starting to sound more complicated and expensive than I first thought. I need to stop and think about this some more....

I think you just turned off most of the potential winter camping crowd from ever considering using the black water system in really cold temperatures. "Hey, what are all those totes over there?". "Oh, never mind those, just some frozen waste."

[War Eagle]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

I think you just turned off most of the potential winter camping crowd from ever considering using the black water system in really cold temperatures. "Hey, what are all those totes over there?". "Oh, never mind those, just some frozen waste."

Dave, I doubt if anyone camping in those conditions would have many neighbors to worry about offending, and if so, they just might be jealous instead! If you're worried about offending, just throw a tarp over them. Growing up in the mountains of Colorado, there was a time we were proud just to have an outhouse - to heck with what others thought. For those who have never had the pleasure of using an outhouse when it's 20 below with a 30 mph wind whirling through the slab-board siding (including the "underside"), you don't dawdle or waste any time daydreaming! Oh, the childhood memories.....