Tips on dry camping

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by thiggins

Those end up in a dumpster too, and they are biodegradable.

WAG bags are one of the products of Cleanwaste. I can find no claim anywhere in their website of biodegradability, except in the graphic on the front of the product package. What leads you to believe that these are actually biodegradable?

I suspect that this was a claim which could not be supported, and so has been removed by the manufacturer from their materials, although retailers and others may still claim biodegradability. Even bags (for holding anything) which legitimately meet standards to be called "biodegradable" are unlikely to break down effectively in landfill; conditions in a landfill are not like a compost pile.

I sent this query to Cleanwaste; the reply (if there is one) should be interesting.

Are WAG bags - or your other products - biodegradable or compostable? If so, what standard do they meet?

[caddoster]

As a side note I believe the WAG bag is allowed (and recommended?) for locations that requires you to pack out all your trash including human waste. For example the White Rim trail and the Rubicon trail.. although for those locations they never really mention what you are supposed to do with those bags afterward..

[gbaglo]

Originally Posted by thiggins

Better tell that to all those babies pooping in their diapers...all the dogs pooping in the campgrounds...all those kitties pooping in the litter boxes...and our depends...

Cats and dogs have been known to eat their own feces.

[thoer]

This has reminded me of the "good old days" on the Illinois River in Peoria when Chicago used to dump raw sewage directly into the river... more than just dead fish used to be floating on downstream... sure gave meaning to the "we can't all live upstream" quote.

[thiggins]

Fort Drum - The Mountaineer Online

"...The official name is the “Waste Aggregation and Gelling” bag, and it was developed in 1999 by three residents of Bozeman, Mont. Bill and Pam Phillips and Mike Groff were motivated by a desire to reduce human impact in wilderness areas, and they developed the bags – and the “Pooh Powder” that fills them – to be functional and easily biodegradable.

The military began issuing WAG bags to Soldiers in Iraq due to the lack of flush toilets in most of the country. Soldiers have long built outhouse-style toilets, and movies about the Vietnam War made the burning of waste in 55-gallon drums from underneath them famous. With the new bags, there is no need for troops to burn the waste – although outhouses are still built.

Each bag comes in a plastic packet that contains the funnel-shaped “WAG bag” itself, an opaque plastic bag for disposal, toilet paper and a hand sanitizing wipe. In the WAG bag is a quantity of Pooh Powder.

When waste comes in contact with it, the powder gels the liquid waste, encapsulates the solid waste, neutralizes the odors and begins the decay process. Pooh Powder is a mix of non-toxic, polymer-based absorbent similar to that in disposable diapers, an organic decay catalyst and the odor neutralizer – custom-engineered for the purpose by Phillips Environmental Products. ..."

[sunrisetrucker]

Originally Posted by thiggins

Better tell that to all those babies pooping in their diapers...all the dogs pooping in the campgrounds...all those kitties pooping in the litter boxes...and our depends...

Please note my previous answer

Originally Posted by sunrisetrucker

Disposable diapers where meant to have the solids removed and flushed down the toilet. Ask anyone who works at a wast disposal site (AKA garbage dump) what they think of disposable diapers.
Also two wrongs don't make a right.

My wife and I do our best to keep things out of land fills and recycle as much as we can. We need to look after this planet not fill it up dumpsters with more and more garbage and that includes raw sewage, no matter it's source or species.

Ok I'll get off my soapbox now.

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

Originally Posted by thiggins

Fort Drum - The Mountaineer Online

"...The official name is the “Waste Aggregation and Gelling” bag, and it was developed in 1999 by three residents of Bozeman, Mont. Bill and Pam Phillips and Mike Groff were motivated by a desire to reduce human impact in wilderness areas, and they developed the bags – and the “Pooh Powder” that fills them – to be functional and easily biodegradable.

The military began issuing WAG bags to Soldiers in Iraq due to the lack of flush toilets in most of the country. Soldiers have long built outhouse-style toilets, and movies about the Vietnam War made the burning of waste in 55-gallon drums from underneath them famous. With the new bags, there is no need for troops to burn the waste – although outhouses are still built.

Each bag comes in a plastic packet that contains the funnel-shaped “WAG bag” itself, an opaque plastic bag for disposal, toilet paper and a hand sanitizing wipe. In the WAG bag is a quantity of Pooh Powder.

When waste comes in contact with it, the powder gels the liquid waste, encapsulates the solid waste, neutralizes the odors and begins the decay process. Pooh Powder is a mix of non-toxic, polymer-based absorbent similar to that in disposable diapers, an organic decay catalyst and the odor neutralizer – custom-engineered for the purpose by Phillips Environmental Products. ..."

very good info.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by escape artist

Hi: steve dunham... Your avatar states you don't have a trailer. Your "Hand sanitizer in our trailers bathroom and kitchen" must be another of that pesky Wash. DC fake news!!! Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie

I should have known that someone as observant as you would spot my error / deception. Yes I am part of the fake news conspiracy.
The truth is I never wash my hands , it's just a waste of time , cause they just get dirty again !!

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by caddoster

As a side note I believe the WAG bag is allowed (and recommended?) for locations that requires you to pack out all your trash including human waste.

Originally Posted by thiggins

Fort Drum - The Mountaineer Online

"...The official name is the “Waste Aggregation and Gelling” bag, and it was developed in 1999 by three residents of Bozeman, Mont. Bill and Pam Phillips and Mike Groff were motivated by a desire to reduce human impact in wilderness areas...

The military began issuing WAG bags to Soldiers in Iraq due to the lack of flush toilets in most of the country. Soldiers have long built outhouse-style toilets, and movies about the Vietnam War made the burning of waste in 55-gallon drums from underneath them famous. With the new bags, there is no need for troops to burn the waste – although outhouses are still built.
..."

Right - the bags exist to get waste out of areas lacking sewage facilities, to avoid local pollution. This makes sense for campers in sensitive remote areas, or in military or emergency response situations. That doesn't describe camping in campgrounds.

[gbaglo]

Usually, if there is a dumpster, there is also a proper disposal facility.

[thoer]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Right - the bags exist to get waste out of areas lacking sewage facilities, to avoid local pollution. This makes sense for campers in sensitive remote areas, or in military or emergency response situations. That doesn't describe camping in campgrounds.

Exactly what I was thinking as I have read this discussion.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

I sent this query to Cleanwaste; the reply (if there is one) should be interesting.

The initial reply didn't help much:

Yes, all of our bags will break down in the landfill and have a degradation catalyst in them. What do you mean by "What standard do they meet"?

So I asked:

Products which claim to biodegrade or compost are commonly assessed by organizations such as the Biodegradable Products Institute (BPI), following the standards of those organizations or standards organizations such as ASTM International. I was wondering if you had your product tested or certified according to any of these standards.

What degradation catalyst is used?

And the answer was:

We do not ever claim that our products are biodegradable because there are states that will not allow us to do that when associated with plastics. Our bags do contain a starch derivative in the bag structure itself that acts as a decay catalyst and aids in the breakdown process.

No, we have not had our products tested with either of the organizations you mentioned.

I thanked them for the information, and noted:

Although the text "biodegradable" does not appear in your website, it does appear on the WAG Bag packaging, and so it shouldn't be surprising that online retailers (such as REI Co-op, Amazon.com, and Amazon.ca) describe them as biodegradable.

(The usual pleasantries have been omitted from the quoted message content.)

So, the answer is that there is some attempt to make the plastic WAG bags degrade, but it is not acceptable by current standards, and they haven't even tried to make the product meet those standards.

It is entirely possible that most (perhaps nearly all) the WAG Bags ever placed in landfills are still there, holding urine and feces in storage for later generations. The alternative is that the bag breaks down enough to put massive numbers of tiny but destructive petroleum-based polymer particles (which themselves will not break down) into ground water and waterways.

[sunrisetrucker]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

The initial reply didn't help much:

So I asked:

And the answer was:

I thanked them for the information, and noted:

(The usual pleasantries have been omitted from the quoted message content.)

So, the answer is that there is some attempt to make the plastic WAG bags degrade, but it is not acceptable by current standards, and they haven't even tried to make the product meet those standards.

It is entirely possible that most (perhaps nearly all) the WAG Bags ever placed in landfills are still there, holding urine and feces in storage for later generations. The alternative is that the bag breaks down enough to put massive numbers of tiny but destructive petroleum-based polymer particles (which themselves will not break down) into ground water and waterways.

That's very interesting Brian
Thank you for your research and input.

[gbaglo]

From: What’s the Difference? – Compostable vs. Biodegradable vs. Recyclable | Bridge-Gate Alliance Group


The main difference between biodegradable and compostable is the latter breaks down into “humus,” which provides valuable nutrients to the soil. Biodegradable products just return to nature, disintegrating or disappearing completely. This disintegration could take a week or years – another difference with compostable, where items must break down in a “timely” fashion i.e., one-to-four months. (The FTC states biodegradable items have “reasonably short period of time” to break down, which hasn’t been clarified.)
Finally, compostable items must completely break down and not release any metals or toxins into the compost. Biodegradable products can leave metal residue in their return to nature.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

From: What’s the Difference? – Compostable vs. Biodegradable vs. Recyclable | Bridge-Gate Alliance Group

A good, concise description.

Originally Posted by gbaglo

The main difference between biodegradable and compostable is the latter breaks down into “humus,” which provides valuable nutrients to the soil. Biodegradable products just return to nature, disintegrating or disappearing completely. This disintegration could take a week or years – another difference with compostable, where items must break down in a “timely” fashion i.e., one-to-four months. (The FTC states biodegradable items have “reasonably short period of time” to break down, which hasn’t been clarified.)
Finally, compostable items must completely break down and not release any metals or toxins into the compost. Biodegradable products can leave metal residue in their return to nature.

... and by those definitions, not only are WAG Bags far from compostable, they're not even biodegradable. The starch added to the plastic (in an attempt to make it biodegradable) also keeps the plastic from being recyclable, even if someone came up with a process to do it.

[gbaglo]

No problem.
Just toss them in a dumpster, or the Grand Canyon.