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Old 11-30-2015, 11:59 AM   #41
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workmanship and safeguarding safety

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Originally Posted by steve dunham View Post
Most RV manufacturers follow the. Electrical code except for NEC Art 110.12 , which states " All electrical equipment shall be installed in a neat and workmanship like manner "
Looking at the photos in this thread one can draw your own conclusion.
Steve,
You make an absolutely important point. Workmanship and safeguarding life/safety go hand in hand. (See NEC Art. 110.3#8: ...factors that contribute to the practical safeguarding of persons..).

Also, reading assignment for those who want to be an in depth discussion of what's been said on this thread, try reading:
--NFPA 1192 - Std. on Recreational Vehicles, especially chap. 5-Fuel systems and equipment
(E.G. art. 5.4.6.1 "All fuel-burning appliances, except ranges and ovens, shall be designed and installed to provide complete separation of the combustion system from the interior atmosphere of the RV.");
--NFPA 70 - National Electric Code, Art. 551-Recreational Vehicles and RV Parks.

So, yes, there are Codes and Standards covering RV's. And, yes, mfr's follow to some degree. ETI is one of the very best.

I know I'm going to get some backlash for throwing Codes and Stds. out there, from where I sit right now, (Fire Dept. prevention bureau engineering desk) but in the last 1 years, our Dept. has responded to deaths in RVs/Trailers due to (1)unvented appliance used for heating inside, (2)electrocution due to unsafe electrical, (3)fire due to unsafe electrical and due to unsafe use of appliances.

My point is, the safety cautions that have been pointed out are valid. If you find that you're justifying a contrary position by starting your argument with "but" , or "I just want to", or because someone else does it, you may just be a 911 call down the road. I don't want my friends in the other room to have to respond and find you. I'd rather find you at the next trailer rally campfire, enjoying your Escape.

Thanks for listening.
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Old 11-30-2015, 12:02 PM   #42
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The NEC (National Electrical Code) Article 551 covers the wiring for RVs & RV Parks. The NFPA (National Fire Protection Association, of which the NEC is part of) Standard 1192 covers plumbing & fuel (including propane). Whether they are enforced is up to the "Authority", the term used to define who enforces the code as law, since the codes are written by non judicial organizations (primary insurance companies).

While both are filled with legalize, if you are willing to register with them, you can use a NFPA reader to view either document: NFPA Standard 1192
and the current (2014) NEC.

The readers for the on line versions are kind of clunky, and you can't easily cut & paste from them, but they are free. Minnesota used to provide online full copies of the code in many formats, but a court case has made it unavailable.
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Old 11-30-2015, 12:23 PM   #43
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What most people don't know or understand is that the NEC is a "Minimum" standard and just because something is wired to code does not mean it is adequate for the task. Often electrical installations are done following best practice which exceeds code standards.
When I did electrical inspections , I often heard when I condemned an installation was that the code made no sense or it cost too much to do it correctly. Many areas adopt the NEC but then fail to enforce the code or even provide adequate inspection. I for one as a licensed electrician welcomed having my work inspected , if only for my peace of mind.
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Old 11-30-2015, 12:38 PM   #44
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Doesn't matter who built the rig or your home, Safety should be priority one. I routinely soap-test all my gas connections because as you travel they can work loose. I can't even begin to list the electrical issues I've cleaned up over the years restoring multiple trailers and homes. Some are due to manufacturers/builders and some are due to previous owners (PO).
Just because things seem to work OK that isn't a pass that they are safe and properly done. Always err on the side of caution.
Obviously, I support ETI and believe their product is top notch since I've just picked up my second Escape in three years, but I don't expect perfection. There were issues on my 17B that I wasn't comfortable with and fixed. I'm sure there will be some on the new 19, but they'll be reworked as I come across them. Having been 3/4 under the bed already looking for leaks after freezing weather, I have to say I'm pretty impressed with the work done on the back end.
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Old 11-30-2015, 12:41 PM   #45
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Thanks Don and Jon for the U.S. code references. These are the codes to which RVIA refers in its compilation of what standards should be followed in RV design and construction. The seem like reasonable codes to follow even for those not legally constrained by them.

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Whether they are enforced is up to the "Authority", the term used to define who enforces the code as law, since the codes are written by non judicial organizations (primary insurance companies).
That's where provincial (and perhaps state) regulations come in, and how Escape Trailer Industries is required to follow the applicable CSA standard.
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Old 11-30-2015, 04:34 PM   #46
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I just got back from my insurance agency, fuming over a 35% increase in my contractors policy premium. The answer was that the company had a lot of claims for work done by contractors. I wouldn't argue with this as a lot of the work I get is straightening out messes done by others. But the worst has to be from the DIY bunch. Why some of these houses are still standing, I will never know. And the proper fix is usually to tear everything out and start over.

Looking over the new trailer, everything looks pretty good and a trailer really has to be built better than a house as it is subject to movement, vibration, torquing, etc. And as far as not doing things right, the liability issues out there are to great. Loren
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Old 11-30-2015, 05:25 PM   #47
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I wouldn't argue with this as a lot of the work I get is straightening out messes done by others. But the worst has to be from the DIY bunch. Why some of these houses are still standing, I will never know. And the proper fix is usually to tear everything out and start over.
Yes, obviously not every contractor does quality work, but not every DIYer is a screw-up. If someone knows what they are doing and how to do it correctly, they can do it just as well or even better than someone with a license. Just saying.....
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Old 11-30-2015, 06:02 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by C&G in FL View Post
Yes, obviously not every contractor does quality work, but not every DIYer is a screw-up. If someone knows what they are doing and how to do it correctly, they can do it just as well or even better than someone with a license. Just saying.....
I have to agree to that. Unfortunately a lot of DIYers get in over their head. It looks easier on television than it is. But it's these contractors that don't care that are the worst. I walked with the city inspectors for 6 years and would be grinning from ear to ear when a city inspector nailed them good.

I think ETI is as conscientious as they come but there are a lot of people working there. Also the trailer line moves forward every 8 hours and if you run into a problem, there isn't time to look after small details. And more times than not, something goes wrong rather than you getting a break. Been there, done that.

As for the original subject, any propane heater that is not vented to the outside puts a lot of moister into the air. And in a trailer in cold weather, moister control is difficult. I got wet setting up in the rain on our 4th night out and after hanging my sweatshirt out to dry in the trailer, we started to get condensation down by the front of the mattress. Won't do that again. Loren
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Old 11-30-2015, 07:18 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loren & Cathy View Post
But the worst has to be from the DIY bunch.
For the most part this is very true. I can tell a home owner completed project most of the time. There are a few home owners that do a good and proper job, but they are the exception. There are a few too, that unsure of how to build things, totally overthink and overbuild what they do.

That said, I have followed behind a few other contractors fixing and finishing their work. I don't know how many times that an owner is too anxious to get the work done, and we are too busy for the time being, that they go looking for someone who can do the work sooner, only to have the contractor they did hire screw up in one way or another, and I get a call......
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Old 12-01-2015, 05:19 PM   #50
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This is just not true, baglo even posted a photo of the CSA decal that shows that the trailer meets the CSA-Z240 RV code for plumbing and electrical. You must have missed that. With the talks I have had with Reace regarding it, he will not do anything that does not comply with the requirements..
It is true. I found a document from the files of the US Federal Reserve that explains this and why. I'll post it in a new thread soon.
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