Heating "nightmares"

[jamie beers]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Yes, here it is, very quiet. Amazon.com: Broan Model 170 Wall Heater, 500/1000 Watt 120 VAC, White Painted Grille: Home Improvement

Jim, where did you install that in your 19 foot. How did it work for you, in that location. Thanks. j

[cpaharley2008]

Check out post #94 here http://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f8...a-1657-10.html

[jamie beers]

Great, thanks very much for pointing that out to me. j

[Bobccat]

We just bought a Pelonis 120 volt heater when we are on the grid and it is very quiet.

Pelonis Disc Furnace - World Marketing B-6A1 - Portable Heaters - Camping World

[Vermilye]

That is the current version of the one I'm using. Love it!

[Ray N]

Originally Posted by Donna D.

There's all kinds of solutions to be had, most require a current bush.

I've got a Bud, who's part of Ford Motor Company's R&D division and he also owns a Casita. He camps year around. There are issues with a single shell trailer with limited insulation, but he's found plugging in heat mats not only heat the trailer but keeps his tootsies warm when getting up in the middle of the night, and raises the temperature of the trailer over all: Heated Foot Warmer Mat - Commercial and Industrial Mats. I'm going to look into these... YMMV

Very interesting idea. It doesn't look like one would have enough output to warm a trailer, but with a couple.....hmmmm? Let us know what you find out.

[ksb]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

I'm in southern Arizona now, and it was 27°F this morning at Lost Dutchman State Park.

Lost Dutchman State Park is a great place to visit, wish we were there (currently 10 degrees...warmest it has been in days!)

[drjenk]

If we want to use something like one of these:
https://www.amazon.com/Camco-57331-O...=wave+3+heater

...with ventilation of course, where would it get it's source of propane indoors? Could ETI provide an inside propane tap? Has anyone got this done?

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by drjenk

If we want to use something like one of these:
https://www.amazon.com/Camco-57331-O...=wave+3+heater

...with ventilation of course, where would it get it's source of propane indoors? Could ETI provide an inside propane tap??

An additional branch from the main regulated propane supply line under the trailer could be brought up through the floor where it is needed for the heater.

I believe that in the past ETI has refused to install a gas line without the appliance (such as for someone wanting to do their own refrigerator or stove installation), as they do not want to leave a capped-off line. I'm just guessing that they would not install this heater, as it would not likely be acceptable under the CSA standard for RVs (although I haven't checked).

[Vermilye]

One rather expensive solution is to buy a new Escape. While the original Atwood 8012II furnace used in the earlier Escapes used the least current of any standard RV furnaces at 1.8 amp and was pretty quiet, the furnace used in the 21 (and I believe in all the other models) draws a bit more current (2.5 amps) but is quite a bit quieter.

[ReagentGrade]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

One rather expensive solution is to buy a new Escape. While the original Atwood 8012II furnace used in the earlier Escapes used the least current of any standard RV furnaces at 1.8 amp and was pretty quiet, the furnace used in the 21 (and I believe in all the other models) draws a bit more current (2.5 amps) but is quite a bit quieter.

Jon is totally correct, the new furnace is amazingly quiet! I love it.

[jking1224]

Originally Posted by drjenk

If we want to use something like one of these:
https://www.amazon.com/Camco-57331-O...=wave+3+heater

...with ventilation of course, where would it get it's source of propane indoors? Could ETI provide an inside propane tap? Has anyone got this done?

I also own this heater. I intend to use it in my Escape 21, which I do not yet own. People who respond that the built in furnace is very quiet and efficient do not recognize that this heater is even better: it is silent, uses zero electricity and less propane than the built in furnace over long periods.
"silent" beats "quiet". Zero amps beats "low amps" and less propane use means longer stays.
And it is designed for high duty cycles. You can run this heater 24/7 for months on end, year after year trouble free.

As to feeding it, I doubt ETI will install a propane line inside the trailer, even with a shutoff valve. For one, they are doing less and less customizations in general. As they grow, they are seeking to streamline things and eliminating custom things is part of that. Second, it is just not safe for them to do. It represents a very substantial liability for them.

I have not figured out exactly how I will do this heater. But my general idea is this. When you run this heater, you have to be venting, changing the air. If you are closed up, it consumes the oxygen, sets off the CO alarm. It does not produce toxic gaxes, it is safe to use indoors, but new air is needed.

So, I figure the best location is near the dinette in the 21, away from the bed. That way won't trip on it in the night. I may add an outside vent port under the dinette bench, bringing in cold air near the floor opposite end of the trailer from the bed. Then, leave the bathroom ceiling vent open or the bathroom window open. So, air is moving from low to high, one end to the other. But the air is warm near the bed.

As for propane, I had the exterior quick connect installed. It is located to the low, right of the door. That is, near the front of the trailer. I may run a rubber propane host from there, under the trailer and come into the trailer under the bench, perhaps using the same vent port for air. This way, it is connected using all manufactured hoses, only valve is outside, flair connection direct to heater. All temporary set up so that during the warm months, just remove it all and store it at home, out of the way. Another option is to bring the propane in through the bathroom window (another option I elected). But that is less attractive since the hose would be in the way. But I can try that without modifying the trailer. Or a rear window near the dinette.

[wetzk]

Originally Posted by jking1224

I have not figured out exactly how I will do this heater. But my general idea is this. When you run this heater, you have to be venting, changing the air. If you are closed up, it consumes the oxygen, sets off the CO alarm. It does not produce toxic gaxes, it is safe to use indoors, but new air is needed.

Make sure you have plenty of fresh air as it can produce carbon monoxide according to the manual.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by jking1224

It does not produce toxic gaxes, it is safe to use indoors...

No propane heater produces any toxic gas when it is operating perfectly. Nothing ever operates perfectly, so they all produce toxic gas and the only question is how much - not if - carbon monoxide is produced.

This is a Consumer Products Safety Commission report:
CO Emissions From Portable Propane Radiant Heaters
The heaters in this study varied in burner design: some had an open flame surrounded by a diffuser and reflector, at least one had an open flame behind a ceramic radiator (the Buddy design), and others had catalytic pads (like the Wave). The design variation was insignificant to the point of not warranting a mention in the report, because all of them burned reasonably cleanly in ideal conditions, and all produced carbon monoxide to an extent dependent on oxygen supply.

The propane-fueled cooking stove in a trailer is safe to use inside (even though it consumes oxygen and produces some unburned propane, and some incomplete combustion products including carbon monoxide, and it has no safety shutdown systems of any kind), because it is used with adequate ventilation and attention by the user, for brief periods. That's not how a heater is used.

It is up to each RV owner to make a decision - hopefully with adequate information - about the risks they are willing to take. For the manufacturer, there is also a requirement to comply with standards, and Escape designs and builds in compliance with the relevant CSA standard. CSA Z240 RV Series-14, in Z240.4.2 section 5.1.6 says

Gas-fired appliances (excluding cooking ranges) installed in recreational vehicles (other than folding camping trailers with canvas walls or tops) shall be of the direct vent type or of a type that provides equivalent complete separation of the combustion system from the atmosphere of the living space.

Whatever the manufacturer of an unvented heater says about where it can be used, it does not comply with this standard... and the standard's requirement makes sense to me.

[sunrisetrucker]

Originally Posted by jking1224

I also own this heater. I intend to use it in my Escape 21, which I do not yet own. People who respond that the built in furnace is very quiet and efficient do not recognize that this heater is even better: it is silent.

Many years ago I had a similar heater and I will never own an RV with one again. I'll take "very quiet" over "silent" everytime.

[Defenestrator]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

No propane heater produces any toxic gas when it is operating perfectly. Nothing ever operates perfectly, so they all produce toxic gas and the only question is how much - not if - carbon monoxide is produced.

This is a Consumer Products Safety Commission report:
CO Emissions From Portable Propane Radiant Heaters
The heaters in this study varied in burner design: some had an open flame surrounded by a diffuser and reflector, at least one had an open flame behind a ceramic radiator (the Buddy design), and others had catalytic pads (like the Wave). The design variation was insignificant to the point of not warranting a mention in the report, because all of them burned reasonably cleanly in ideal conditions, and all produced carbon monoxide to an extent dependent on oxygen supply.

The propane-fueled cooking stove in a trailer is safe to use inside (even though it consumes oxygen and produces some unburned propane, and some incomplete combustion products including carbon monoxide, and it has no safety shutdown systems of any kind), because it is used with adequate ventilation and attention by the user, for brief periods. That's not how a heater is used.

It is up to each RV owner to make a decision - hopefully with adequate information - about the risks they are willing to take. For the manufacturer, there is also a requirement to comply with standards, and Escape designs and builds in compliance with the relevant CSA standard. CSA Z240 RV Series-14, in Z240.4.2 section 5.1.6 says

Whatever the manufacturer of an unvented heater says about where it can be used, it does not comply with this standard... and the standard's requirement makes sense to me.

Wow, thanks for the link. I'd been under the impression that the catalytic heaters produced significantly less CO. It appears that's not actually the case at a given oxygen level. The oxygen depletion sensor certainly seems to do its job in shutting things off before O2 concentration gets low enough to cause increased CO output, though.