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Old 12-06-2013, 12:34 PM   #21
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The Atwood 8012 is probably the most efficient and quiet rv propane furnace available today. With less than 2 amp draw (the lowest available) and operating at 50%, you will only use 8 a/h a nite, with a solar panel and a battery you will not run out of juice. Compared to Suburban and other Atwood models, it is the best IMHO. With a digital thermostat, you will be able to eliminate hot and could cycles caused by conventional thermostats. It is, again IMHO, an ideal set up. I have had 6 other propane furnaces in past 5 years and this is what I'm basing my opinion on.
The Wave requires fresh air and exhaust, something that is incongruous with trying to keep warm. Your Atwood does not need either of these. Other than condensation your unit can be kept unopened to the outside cold.
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:16 PM   #22
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I have been looking at the Propex HeatSource furnaces that are extremely popular with VW Westfallia Van campers. They have a 1.4Amp draw, are purportedly even quieter than the Atwood 8012, and are (I think) physically smaller. Given what I know about them at this point (having only read about them on the internet, no actual experience) and if I was in the market for a new furnace, I would probably get one of these. Anybody else know anything about them?

Propex HS2000 Heater - Blown Air space heater, thermostat - Gas power
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:17 PM   #23
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Let me summarize this:
Cyclopath started this thread in hopes of finding a solution to stay warm without being woken by his Atwood heater. He owns 2013 Escape which probably means he has an Atwood 8012 installed. Some members have tried to discourage him from using his stove which I hope we all know is dangerous to use as heat for numerous reasons. While others including myself have suggested other options for quiet heat so that he can sleep. Jim I think you also had electric heat available on your last trailer and plan to have it on Blackjack. That's a good option if he has shore power available. It's likely because he is in Phoenix, Arizona where it is 120 in the shade during summer.
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:30 PM   #24
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Yes, here it is, very quiet. Amazon.com: Broan Model 170 Wall Heater, 500/1000 Watt 120 VAC, White Painted Grille: Home Improvement
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Old 12-06-2013, 06:49 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AimlessWanderLust View Post
I have been looking at the Propex HeatSource furnaces that are extremely popular with VW Westfallia Van campers. They have a 1.4Amp draw, are purportedly even quieter than the Atwood 8012, and are (I think) physically smaller.

Propex HS2000 Heater - Blown Air space heater, thermostat - Gas power
Specs for the HS2000 are in the brochure.
Atwood Mobile - Furnaces offers the installation manual for the 7912/8012 if you would like to compare.

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Given what I know about them at this point (having only read about them on the internet, no actual experience) and if I was in the market for a new furnace, I would probably get one of these. Anybody else know anything about them?
I am only familiar with the Propex product from forum discussions and the Propex website. The Propex certainly looks promising.

The Propex HS2000 is physically a small fraction of the Atwood's volume, and substantially more efficient, but has only 71% of the Atwood's heat output. If that's enough, and if the noise is at least proportionately lower, it might be a good choice for many.

The Propex HS2800 has about the same (slightly higher) heat output than the Atwood, in a box which is larger than the HS2000 but still much smaller than the Atwood, and still much more efficient. It may be a better match for colder climates or larger Escape models.

My guess is that any Propex will be expensive compared to an Atwood (or Suburban), and that it may be difficult to import due to regulatory compliance. For that reason, I would not be surprised if Escape were unable to install a Propex as custom original equipment.
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Old 12-06-2013, 06:55 PM   #26
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The first time our heater went on because it was so cold, I too was awakened. However I was so grateful for the heat, I could have hugged my heater and was happy to be awake to enjoy the warmth. C'mon folks ... This is camping!
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Old 12-06-2013, 07:02 PM   #27
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With a digital thermostat, you will be able to eliminate hot and could cycles caused by conventional thermostats.
How? Any thermostat simply turns the furnace on and off. The triggering temperature to go on must be lower than the temperature to turn off (the difference is called the deadband), or the furnace would rapidly cycle on and off. The larger the difference between these two points, the greater the variation in interior temperature, but also the fewer sleep-disrupting starts and stops. Digital or mechanical, any thermostat has a deadband and it can be as large or small as desired (deadband is user-adjustable in some mechanical thermostats).

The ideal setup is a continuously variable heat output - as described earlier for an electric heater - so the furnace runs continuously, but as quietly as possible and without any disruptive starts and stops. This is expensive to do in a fuel-burning appliance (it needs a variable gas valve and variable-speed fans), so it is uncommon in home furnaces and likely non-existent in RV furnaces; no thermostat can make a single-speed furnace into a variable one. I have two Atwood furnaces in a larger trailer which are each two-level, which is a crude approximation to the desired variable output.
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Old 12-06-2013, 07:02 PM   #28
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I have an oldy but goody Scamp and the oldy but goody Suburban furance works well, very well. The first time I was camping and the furnace came on in the middle of the night, I shot out of bed because I thought at 747 was going to land on the roof! I find that a sustained noise doesn't bother me, but the roar, quiet, roar, quiet is most uncomfortable. A white-noise machine may be in order to maintain a constant noise. Works for me!
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Old 12-06-2013, 07:13 PM   #29
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I'm not suggesting that this is a practical retrofit, but one approach to quiet non-electric heat is a circulating hot water system: a "boiler" heats the water, the water circulates though tubing in the floor, and no blowing of interior air is required. This typically replaces the water heater as well.

Aqua-Hot is the common brand. These are usually diesel-fueled (rather than propane) and come only in large sizes, typically found in large diesel-engined motorhomes. Aqua-Hot/s "small" (and propane-fueled) unit is the 400LP... but it is 7 times the heat output of an Atwood 8012! Some people have custom-built smaller systems, but this is not a trivial undertaking.
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Old 12-06-2013, 07:32 PM   #30
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Looks like the Propex HS2800 is $895 Westy Ventures / Propex heaters compared to about $450 US for the 12k Atwood according to Google.

In my stick built, by installing a digital thermostat I eliminated the wide temp swings we had with our original analog, the furnace instead came on more often for shorter periods as one would expect but certianly keeps it much more comfortable.
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Old 12-06-2013, 07:40 PM   #31
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There's all kinds of solutions to be had, most require a current bush.

I've got a Bud, who's part of Ford Motor Company's R&D division and he also owns a Casita. He camps year around. There are issues with a single shell trailer with limited insulation, but he's found plugging in heat mats not only heat the trailer but keeps his tootsies warm when getting up in the middle of the night, and raises the temperature of the trailer over all: Heated Foot Warmer Mat - Commercial and Industrial Mats. I'm going to look into these... YMMV
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Old 12-06-2013, 07:45 PM   #32
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Brian,
The temperature high/low points is known as the swing and the digital eliminates the furnace over shooting the set point thereby causing it to get too hot and then it gets too cold.
I had an Atwood 15/22 variable speed furnace in my Lance. It comes on at 22,000 btu for 10minutes high speed and then slows the speed down and the heat to 15,000 BTU. There are variable speed propane rv furnaces available.
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Old 12-06-2013, 09:35 PM   #33
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Looks like the Propex HS2800 is $895 Westy Ventures / Propex heaters compared to about $450 US for the 12k Atwood according to Google.
Thanks for the data and link.
I'm not surprised by the difference, and for quieter operation on less power and propane, while leaving more storage space, I might pay that.

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In my stick built, by installing a digital thermostat I eliminated the wide temp swings we had with our original analog, the furnace instead came on more often for shorter periods as one would expect but certianly keeps it much more comfortable.
That makes sense: that particular digital thermostat had a narrower deadband than that particular mechanical thermostat (at least the way it was set).
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Old 12-06-2013, 09:58 PM   #34
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The temperature high/low points is known as the swing and the digital eliminates the furnace over shooting the set point thereby causing it to get too hot and then it gets too cold.
Unless the digital is watching the rate of temperature increase and anticipating the overshoot that's just a narrower deadband... and simply a narrower deadband does essentially the same thing. The Atwood literature for their digital thermostat doesn't suggest any additional functionality in control of a single-speed furnace, but talks about "accuracy"; this sounds like simply a narrow deadband. Nothing magic about digital...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
I had an Atwood 15/22 variable speed furnace in my Lance. It comes on at 22,000 btu for 10minutes high speed and then slows the speed down and the heat to 15,000 BTU. There are variable speed propane rv furnaces available.
That's the same design (in a smaller size) as my big Atwoods (23,000/34,000 BTU/hr) and what I was referring to as a crude two-step substitute for a variable furnace... still better than just one speed. By the way, according to Atwood it should step down based on temperature, not time. I've never heard of an RV furnace with more than two steps - anyone have an example?
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Old 12-07-2013, 08:16 AM   #35
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( By the way, according to Atwood it should step down based on temperature, not time. I've never heard of an RV furnace with more than two steps - anyone have an example?)

The digitally controlled heat pump system in our house is 2 step and based on temperature. The range (deadband) , is controllable up to 8 degrees ( 4 for each range ).
I have also never heard of an rv unit having more than 2 steps and seeing how our residential unit is very current and supposedly state of the art. I would be surprised if there are units commercially available for rv's with more than 2 ranges.IMHO
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:50 AM   #36
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The temperature high/low points is known as the swing and the digital eliminates the furnace over shooting the set point thereby causing it to get too hot and then it gets too cold.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
Unless the digital is watching the rate of temperature increase and anticipating the overshoot that's just a narrower deadband...
As it turns out, this alternate approach is also used, and called a heat anticipator. The rate of temperature increase isn't actually measured, just assumed, but the furnace can switch on a narrow or zero deadband without cycling excessively. The illustration is a mechanical thermostat - no electronics needed, but of course a digital thermostat could easy offer this feature.

Whatever the method, the result with a fixed rate of furnace output will still be a compromise between tight temperature control and minimized cycling - you can't have both. The small volume and high heat loss rate of a travel trailer will accentuate this problem.
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:58 AM   #37
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I ran across a manual for a thermostat (S1-THPU32P7S - this one's digital) with adjustments for both the deadband and the "Cycles Per Hour", which is a timed limit on cycling. One could set zero deadband and pick a desired CPH, or put no limit on CPH and set the deadband (or "swing") wide enough - up to 6°F - to get the desired behaviour.

Another example, Carrier's Debonair 33CSSN2-WC includes this in its description:
Quote:
To avoid short cycling and protect equipment, an adjustable dead band can be configured to user's specifications (from 1° to 6 F) and in cycles per hour (2 to 6).
So, you have deadband, anticipators, and CPH controls... all having similar effect. A thermostat with any one of them would be helpful. It seems likely that mechanical units may have anticipators, digital units commonly have CPH settings, and both may have adjustable deadbands.
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Old 12-07-2013, 12:59 PM   #38
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I believe we are now talking about the same thing, Brian, the anticipator tries to eliminate the temperature swing. Either way, with the digital you can (1) set the anticipator or swing to be from 1 to 4 degrees and (2) it has a lower setting than most factory coil units, so you have a freeze setting of say 40 degrees to keep the unit from freezing, and (3) it displays the current temperature and set temperature in digital read outs, a lot easier on senior eyes than counting the little black marks on the dial.
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Old 12-07-2013, 01:00 PM   #39
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I'll also propose a heater strip add on to your AC unit if you've got one installed (and have shore power). No louder then running the AC in the summer, no compressor/fan cycling (if the appliance cycling noise is the sleeping issue), good air distribution to the far reaches of the trailer to battle condensation, low cost < $50 self installed in my polar cub which is pre wired for the installation (plug and heat ;-).
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Old 12-07-2013, 01:07 PM   #40
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Yes, had one in my Escape 19 with the Polar Cub. Not sure it is offered with the Dometic unit. Good for eliminating the morning chills while hooked up. May have to look into seeing if it can be bought from Dometic and can be added by the owner easily.
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