Mods I Haven't Seen Elsewhere

[cpaharley2008]

I have a hot water heat system in my home with this valve in addition to my 2 electric water heaters with same valve. Instructions for all 3 call for routine opening at least yearly for cleaning and if leaking to open and flush and repeat until the valve is clean and reseats itself.

[Ron in BC]

And I'm not a believer that cracking the valve open and letting this crap contaminate the valve seat is a good thing. Never done it, never had a dripping PRV but I've sure heard lots of folks that do complaining that the valve was dripping.

Ron

[cpaharley2008]

If you water system is operating correctly it is common for the system to blow, at least here in the northeast with an older home. The bypass is routed to a sump drain and the HVAc person explains it is normal for an occasional blowout to clean the crud out. It is also how I reduce my pressure within my system to about 15 psi operating pressure. I have low pressure hot water radiant heat under my oak floors in cast iron pipes encased with gravel to transfer the heat to the floor. It takes about 6 hours for the heat to reach comfort and then it shuts down and stays warm until 18 hours later where it repeats itself. Best heat set up I have ever had.

[SWCO]

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

You didn't mention what "open" entailed. Is it a few drops or a flow? A few drops might be normal but hosing out wouldn't be.

Nice accumulator tank installation. If I hadn't been so lazy I'd put that size in rather than the smaller one. I think that you'll find that you can get quite a bit of water, even with the pump switched off, like in the middle on the night. Enough to flush or rinse fingers without having the pump come on and disturb others.

Ron

Based on the size of the puddle under the trailer I would estimate that 8-16 ounces come out of the valve at the top of the heat cycle, then (so far) the valve fully reseals. Based on decades of experience with our home and two rental houses, I am not a fan of manually flipping the valves open. When a renter inexplicably does this it often will not reseal and I have to replace the valve. Because the referenced owners manual says leakage/water venting (it does not quantify the amount) is "normal", I was trying to provide additional expansion room. We have similar expansion tanks on our boiler and hot water (Storex) storage tanks in the house that fixed the issue, though these units both have adjustable thermostats. Apparently there is no way to adjust the thermostat in the Escape provided hot water heater. Reace confirmed it was normal (again no quantification), said it was rare to test one that did not release water when heating.

Yes, we can flush a few times (depending on duration) without the pump coming on.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by SWCO

Apparently there is no way to adjust the thermostat in the Escape provided hot water heater.

Yes, that is correct. It is a fixed 130F.

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by SWCO

In an unsuccessful attempt to prevent our water heater pressure relief valve from opening every time we use the water heater I installed a two gallon accumulator tank. It cost very little more than the smaller units marketed specifically for RVs. I included a ball valve shut off and a pressure gauge. Our (factory standard) Shurflo pump comes on at 40 PSI and off at 56 PSI. I pressurized the tank at 37 PSI.

To make room I installed the EMS at the very back of this space, off of the floor and just below the seat. Pump comes on far less often, but the water heater pressure relief valve still opens near the top of the heat cycle ever time the water heater is used. Trailer was picked up new in July 2018. I welcome any suggestions for keeping the temperature/pressure down.
Attachment 34063

Attachment 34064

Attachment 34065

The likely reason adding the accumulator didn't solve the water heater weeping problem is that Escape puts a check valve on the input (cold water) of the water heater to prevent the building pressure as the water heats from damaging the water pump. While the accumulator does provide the benefit of smoothing out the pumping action, it won't help with the leaking from the pressure relief valve.

[War Eagle]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

The likely reason adding the accumulator didn't solve the water heater weeping problem is that Escape puts a check valve on the input (cold water) of the water heater to prevent the building pressure as the water heats from damaging the water pump. While the accumulator does provide the benefit of smoothing out the pumping action, it won't help with the leaking from the pressure relief valve.

I concur with Jon. To address your concern, it seems the accumulator would need to be down-stream from the water heater and its inlet check-valve, and I'm not sure the average accumulator has components designed to withstand continual hot water over time. Does the installation/owners/operators instructions that came with your accumulator address hot water use?

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

The likely reason adding the accumulator didn't solve the water heater weeping problem is that Escape puts a check valve on the input (cold water) of the water heater to prevent the building pressure as the water heats from damaging the water pump. While the accumulator does provide the benefit of smoothing out the pumping action, it won't help with the leaking from the pressure relief valve.

This has come up before. I'm surprised that they needed to add a check valve. Older trailers didn't have them and I haven't had any problems with the pump. The pump has it's own check valve so shouldn't it protect itself? Suburban recommends against inlet check valves as they will increase the weeping at the relief valve.

[War Eagle]

As water heats, it's going to expand, creating pressure in a closed system, and that pressure will try to find the area of least resistance to release that pressure. The question is, where to you want that expansion pressure to go. I'm sure the water heater company would prefer it not go out their pressure valve because that might make their water heater look bad to some people (even though they warn owners about it). I'm sure camper manufacturers would rather it not push out of the tank in either direction and cause a leak at a faucet or connector because then their camper construction looks bad. It's a law of nature that heating water expands, and in a closed system, the pressure is going to increase somewhere and take some water with it. The question is, where do you want it to happen? I'd just as soon the pressure/water is released outside the camper as inside, which the water heater pressure relief valve is designed to accommodate. So I don't have a problem with it. It's doing what its designed to do - protect the rest of the system.

[Ron in BC]

If I felt the need to create an air pocket in the top of the hot water tank I'd first turn off the water pump, open a hot water tap to depressurize the system and crack open the anode enough to let some water drain. Pretty quick and simple and avoids possibly contaminating the T&P valve seat.

Heck, if mine ever starts dripping I might even try that.

Ron

[SWCO]

Originally Posted by War Eagle

I concur with Jon. To address your concern, it seems the accumulator would need to be down-stream from the water heater and its inlet check-valve, and I'm not sure the average accumulator has components designed to withstand continual hot water over time. Does the installation/owners/operators instructions that came with your accumulator address hot water use?

Apparently it is rated for use in water heater or boiler systems. From the description on Amazon:

PWP Accumulator Tank With Wall Mount Bracket 1/2" Female NPT 2 Gallon
by Pro Water Parts
Custom wall Brackets included
Reverse Osmosis Expansion Tank
Max Liquid Pressure: 130 PSI Pre-Pressurized Air: 30 PSI
Applications: Used on gas, oil, or electric, direct-fired, residential water heater and water storage tank applications to absorb the increased volume of water created by thermal expansion.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I was unaware of a check valve upstream of the water heater inlet. Are you sure? Could you post a photo? When I asked Reace if he thought an accumulator tank would help he said probably not, because it would be too small. No mention of a check valve. Thanks.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by SWCO

I was unaware of a check valve upstream of the water heater inlet. Are you sure? Could you post a photo? When I asked Reace if he thought an accumulator tank would help he said probably not, because it would be too small. No mention of a check valve. Thanks.

See the photos in post #1. It is the brass item connected directly to the cold water inlet fitting.
http://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f1...tml#post223802

[SWCO]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

See the photos in post #1. It is the brass item connected directly to the cold water inlet fitting.
http://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f1...tml#post223802

Thank you very much. I looked and our trailer has the check valve on the cold water inlet at the water heater. So far as I can tell the standard guidance for plumbing these accumulator tanks is to place them as close to the output side of the pump as is practical.

With the above facts in mind, it appears to me that if one asks ETI if the addition of an accumulator tank might mitigate the pressure relief valve opening every time the water heater is used the accurate answer is "No, it cannot since the water heater is isolated from the cold water supply side by a check valve", or "Only if you plumb in downstream of the factory installed check valve". Rather than the answer I received: "Probably not, since the tank will not be big enough." As things are currently plumbed, my 2 gallon accumulator tank cannot influence anything happening on the hot water side of the system.

Is the consensus of experience that the toilet is likely to leak due to high water pressure if the check valve is removed (we do not have a toilet shut off valve, but I could easily add one and use it when running the water heater)? Any other negatives (other than warranty) associated with removing the check valve?

Thanks, I have learned a lot here.

[sclifrickson]

Originally Posted by SWCO

Thank you very much. I looked and our trailer has the check valve on the cold water inlet at the water heater. So far as I can tell the standard guidance for plumbing these accumulator tanks is to place them as close to the output side of the pump as is practical.



With the above facts in mind, it appears to me that if one asks ETI if the addition of an accumulator tank might mitigate the pressure relief valve opening every time the water heater is used the accurate answer is "No, it cannot since the water heater is isolated from the cold water supply side by a check valve", or "Only if you plumb in downstream of the factory installed check valve". Rather than the answer I received: "Probably not, since the tank will not be big enough." As things are currently plumbed, my 2 gallon accumulator tank cannot influence anything happening on the hot water side of the system.



Is the consensus of experience that the toilet is likely to leak due to high water pressure if the check valve is removed (we do not have a toilet shut off valve, but I could easily add one and use it when running the water heater)? Any other negatives (other than warranty) associated with removing the check valve?



Thanks, I have learned a lot here.

My curiosity demands that I ask why you are trying to do this, because if it is only to ameliorate a weepy overpressure valve, then I do not understand, as that is a non-issue, as previously discussed. I feel like I’m missing something important here, given the effort and lengths you seem willing to go to in order to “solve” a seemingly non-problem.

[gbaglo]

I figure it the PRV weeps, "no sweat".

[desertvisitor]

Wow, this has got to be one of the best threads on this forum! Thanks for all the great info and additional ideas everyone has shared.

[SWCO]

Originally Posted by sclifrickson

My curiosity demands that I ask why you are trying to do this, because if it is only to ameliorate a weepy overpressure valve, then I do not understand, as that is a non-issue, as previously discussed. I feel like I’m missing something important here, given the effort and lengths you seem willing to go to in order to “solve” a seemingly non-problem.

My perspective is that venting 8-16 ounces of hot water every time the water heater is employed is not acceptable. I understand that others may not share that view.

[sclifrickson]

Originally Posted by SWCO

My perspective is that venting 8-16 ounces of hot water every time the water heater is employed is not acceptable. I understand that others may not share that view.

Well, that does sound excessive. Perhaps your air pocket at the top of the tank needs to be re-established. The tank is designed to be operated with an air pocket specifically for this purpose. Again, from your owner’s manual, page 6, under WATER WEEPING OR DRIPPING FROM PRESSURE RELIEF VALVE:

“One way to reduce the frequency of this occurrence is to maintain an air pocket at the top of the water heater tank. This air pocket will form in the tank by design. However, it will be reduced over time by the everyday use of your water heater. To replenish this air pocket:
1. Turn off water heater.
2. Turn off cold water supply line.
3. Open a faucet in the RV.
4. Pull out on the handle of the Pressure Relief (P&T) Valve and allow water to flow from the valve until it stops.
5. Release handle on the P&T valve - it should snap closed.
6. Close faucet and turn on cold water supply; as the tank fills, the air pocket will develop. Repeat this procedure as often as needed to reduce the frequency of the weeping of the P&T valve. If the weeping persists after following this procedure, you may elect to install an expansion or accumulator tank in the cold water line between the tank and check valve to relieve the pressure caused by thermal expansion. Contact your local dealer for assistance.”

[SWCO]

Has anyone with an Escape trailer removed (or relocated) the check valve installed at the cold water inlet on their water heater?

If anyone has, it would be helpful to learn if this caused any problems. Our previous trailer did not have a check valve installed, and it did not seem to cause any issues. But the two systems may have been designed differently and/or used other components. Thanks in advance to any who can share their experience with this.

[cpaharley2008]

Found this on an external website, a good, economical alternative to the Lagun table set up.
How To Make Your RV Pedestal Table Move, Swivel, And Slide