Portable Solar and Monitor Location

[stoney]

I think those battery charging voltages are correct for a 6v but incorrect for 2 6v batteries run together for 12v would be significantly higher ? Mine are charged at 14.8 and if it's cold outside the charge rate goes even higher with remote temp sensor , cheers mike

[SeldomSeen]

The recommended charging voltages for a single 12v battery on the same chart is shown to be twice the 6 v values. This voltage business is keeping me on the fence between the installed on the roof always- keep- my- batteries- charged, and the preferred portable system that this thread is supposed to be about. But since we are off the road chasing voltages...here are the specs for the WFCO ULTRA III Distribution Center installed in my 19.
Absorption mode: 13.6v
Bulk mode: 14.4v
Float mode: 13.2v
Which may be why the specific gravity of my batteries never shows fully charged until after I have charged it with another battery charger. I think a good solar controller solves this problem.

But as many others around here, I might be obsessing over details...or perhaps killing my batteries slowly over time?

[Greggo]

We carried our 50W solar panel over from our Casita. I put the solar controller inside the battery box up front and ran the wires to both batteries thru the factory wire conduit.

I cut 20' feet off a 25' 16 gauge extension cord and wired it to the controller. It's coiled up and stored in a bag I Velcro strapped to the frame next to the battery. The remaining 5' is wired to the solar panel. When I need solar, I put the panel where I want it, uncoil the long end of the cord and plug both in. In full sun, I consistently get 13.8 volts. Full charge in 90-120 minutes.

I also drilled a hole in the aluminum frame of the solar panel and put a 10' bike cable and pad lock. Keeps everybody honest when we're away!

The solar panel stores neatly under the bed in a cover Ann made up.

Greg

[fudge_brownie]

I would like to summarize some of the requirements of battery charging in a RV environment. Many of these ideas come from Handy Bob who is mentioned and linked above by Glenn. Bob is a curmudgeon and writes that way. "It’s my way or the highway." He does have a very interesting blog and to get the most out of this discussion it is worth the struggle to read what he has posted.

Bob is the ultimate boon docker; living off the grid in an RV on a full time basis. He has definite opinions on batteries, solar controllers, wiring, monitors and much more. He seems to know his stuff.

I think the main premise that Bob makes is; we do not charge our batteries at a high enough voltage and are thus missing out on a substantial source of stored power. For starters, Bob states that Trojan recommends that you charge their batteries at 14.8 volts and using Glenn’s table above we see Interstate is recommending 15.3 volts. Knowing those recommended charge rates you will find that the built in WIFCO controller provided by Escape will only charge at 14.4, if you read up about this charger you will find that it never makes this bulk charge stage, instead always charging at the absorption rate of 13.6 volts. Not good.

Jubal has taken a different approach and replaced his WIFCO with a Progressive PM4-45 MBA controller. From the table below you can see it has a better charge rate of 14.6 volts. Jubal can you give a review of your Progressive controller?

Another alternative is the purchase of a separate smart charger that you connect to your battery. Not my idea of fun.

Solar chargers face the same issue, but here we have some models that actually have the ability to charge at Bob’s recommended 14.8+. I have compared the Escape provided Go Power GP-PWM-30 with a model Bob mentions, the Xantec C35. What makes the Xantec unique is you have the ability to vary the voltage being put out by the charger. The Morningstar TriStar TS-45 performs the same way.

Greggo, the best measure is taken after the batteries have rested. You should be getting 14.8 in the full sun, but the benchmark you are looking for is 12.8 volts after the sun has gone down.

[Greggo]

WOW, thanks fudge. I'm using a Sunforce 7 amp controller. Appreciate the graph. My 13.8 looks like the rate in the Equalization phase. We rarely discharge our batteries below 12.5 V.

Good stuff! Thanks again.

Greg

[Greggo]

double post.

[jamie beers]

Originally Posted by fudge_brownie

I think the main premise that Bob makes is; we do not charge our batteries at a high enough voltage and are thus missing out on a substantial source of stored power. ....

The Morningstar TriStar TS-45 performs the same way.
.

Fudge Brownie, from reading Handy Bob, and other posts here, I was thinking of upgrading equipment.

I was thinking of adding the TS-45 and the Trimetric battery monitor. I'm not sure if I will order either of the digital meters for the TS-45 because of having the Trimetric. Different things, but debating how many monitors I want. What do you think about adding or not adding the Tristar monitor in this case?

Like the idea of the Powermax, but can't find it available in Canada, and I would prefer to avoid US shipping costs.

I guess I'm in the same boat as many here - trying to imagine what might be an ideal setup, then deciding what I want to pay. j

(Oh - also thinking of beefing up the wire size from my alternator to trailer.)

[Jubal]

Hotfishtacos is knowledgeable and has optimized the battery charging systems in his Escape. I would recommend following his recommendations:
http://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f3...ch-1253-4.html
The Powermax inverter and the TriStar TS-45 Solar controller are a significant improvements for optimizing battery charging. Xanterex also make an excellent power inverter.
http://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f8...ades-1167.html

[fudge_brownie]

Having to make decisions on published information is hard. Just think how easy we had it before the internet and did not know about all these choices and opinions. I would guess that you, like many on this forum, like the research and review of all these options.

The Xantec controller comes in two different models, one without a LCD/LED screen. Not sure if the TriStar has that option. Bob was critical of the Xantec, blaming poor Chinese quality. However, I believe all the solar controllers are now made in China.

I do believe with the Trimetric 2025 you will not want or need any other screens. Most of the time the controller is in a water tight box or buried away next to the batteries. A screen on a controller is somewhat useless unless it includes a separate unit that can be placed for viewing. I believe the Go Power that Escape uses has such a feature, an extension that is wired to a LCD/LED screen.

I am still sitting on the fence on the Powermax, my logic is having a solar system that gets the most out of the batteries is more important than the built in charger. It is when boon docking and using solar that I want that extra charge, if I can use shore power it does not matter as much. I was going to ask Reece about substituting during the build but have decided against it.

What is most important regarding the built in charger from WIFCO is it needs at least 24 hours to complete a charge and you are leaving home with only 85% battery charge. And, as this thread points out, you cannot depend on your vehicle to bring that charge up while travelling.

Which brings up the final question, what about rewiring the vehicle? I have to profess that I do not know enough of the benefits of rewiring to know if there is the payoff. Depending on battery placement in your trailer you may need to consider rewiring that as well and probably with some pretty hefty wire. Eric has dual six volts on the back of his Escape 17, resulting in 10 meter wire run. Then you need to be in your vehicle and towing enough to get the charge, so how you use your trailer comes into the equation.

For those looking to purchase solar products in Canada I have found one location that seems quite reasonable www.wegosolar.com. They are based on Vancouver Island. Are there other recommendations?

[Jubal]

If you are opting for the GoPower solar installation from Escape TT and do not want to change the controller :
http://gpelectric.com/files/gpelectr...ler2-FINAL.pdf

[fudge_brownie]

Thanks to Bob, SantaCruzer there is a better device to use when connecting your portable solar to the Escape. Called a "deck connector" it is for marine applications using two wires that are polarized. Bob pointed out the below model from the West Marine catalog.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by fudge_brownie

The use of this NEMA plug is common on water craft. It is a marine style plug and thus has the water tight characteristics necessary to be used on the outside of the trailer.

I agree that it's suitable for the location; the only question is using it for this purpose

Originally Posted by fudge_brownie

It is also advertised for use on an RV. That is not to say it is correct, I am not familiar with the code that would cover this.

It's perfectly appropriate for use on an RV as a 120V AC power inlet. I doubt there's an enforceable code that says anything about connectors used for this application, but I don't know.

Originally Posted by fudge_brownie

However, it is the male plug in the receptacle, certainly it could be mistaken for 110 but we do not commonly plug in the female end of an extension cord.

No, but that's exactly how it is intended to be used, to provide power to the RV. Since Escapes all come with 30 amp service, they don't use this style of connector, but someone familiar with small trailers might reasonably expect this to be the shore power inlet. I agree the chances of the mistake are small.

Originally Posted by fudge_brownie

You have said there may be many connectors suited to this task. There certainly are, however, I have not found one that has the characteristics of surface mount on fiberglass, water tight, and a color that will match well on the outside of an Escape. Perhaps you could suggest an alternative.

I was thinking of electric trolling motor connectors, but those marine deck connections look suitable, too. I was also thinking of the Powerpoles, and even the Neutrik audio connectors, but neither are weather-sealed.

[Stargeezer]

Originally Posted by fudge_brownie

Eric

Can you put the solar controller in the Escape and run #8 AWG wire to the battery, keeping in mind that the distance should be 2 meters or less? This would eliminate the need for a water tight box.

I noticed on a couple of posts the comment that solar controllers should be installed within a couple of meters of the batteries (the closer, the better). Yet Solarland, Samlex & Carmanah all offer 90W - 135W portable solar panel kits c/w built in controllers, that in some cases, result in the distances between controllers & batteries of 10 meters of more.

Conflict??

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by fudge_brownie

Thanks to Bob, SantaCruzer there is a better device to use when connecting your portable solar to the Escape. Called a "deck connector" it is for marine applications using two wires that are polarized. Bob pointed out the below model from the West Marine catalog.

Is this connector not designed for power coming FROM the trailer. If it was to be used for connecting solar panels, the exposed prongs would be hot coming from the panels. Not a good scenario. Though, I may be missing something in the plan.

[thoer]

Originally Posted by Stargeezer

I noticed on a couple of posts the comment that solar controllers should be installed within a couple of meters of the batteries (the closer, the better). Yet Solarland, Samlex & Carmanah all offer 90W - 135W portable solar panel kits c/w built in controllers, that in some cases, result in the distances between controllers & batteries of 10 meters of more.

Conflict??

I have wondered about that same thing. My (very far from solar expert) understanding is that the solar panel puts out voltages higher than required (or recommended) for charging. The job of the controller is then to output the required charge voltages in the various charging cycles. The longer (and smaller) the wires, the more voltage drop. So a voltage drop from the panel to the controller is more acceptable than a voltage drop AFTER the controller.

I contacted solarblvd and asked if the controller on the 100w foldable model is attached in a way that it could be removed (yes). I also asked about output voltages and cycles of the provided controller, but the person who replied did not seem to know anything about the controller itself.

I am looking at the Sunforce 60031 as a reasonably cost controller to use with that panel. I'm leaning toward encasing it in a water resistant box and attaching it right onto one of the battery boxes.

We are not big electric users when camping, and really only do much battery draining in cold weather when using the furnace. We don't boondock for long periods. We also already have a Honda generator, but try to only use it when in campgrounds where other more noisy ones are already running. So for us, it is not really practical to spend a lot on solar.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

Is this connector not designed for power coming FROM the trailer. If it was to be used for connecting solar panels, the exposed prongs would be hot coming from the panels. Not a good scenario.

Good catch Jim... although it's less of a concern in ~20 V and a few amps of capacity than it would be with household power voltages or battery current capacity, I think it's a valid point.

[fudge_brownie]

Larry,
You are correct in in questioning the placement of the solar controller in relation to the distance to the battery. If I could add, many of these "prepackaged" units have a 2-3 meter wire of unknown gauge to be used to connect to the battery. One in particular comes with alligator clips or battery clamps to make that process easier. The manufacturers expectation is that you do not add additional wire, if you do then it becomes an issue. However with 2-3 meters of wire you are not going to have as good a chance to catch some rays. Too short.

One solution may be to replace the wire from the built in solar controller with a higher gauge. I have an inexpensive Morningstar controller that comes with 16 AWG wire to the battery. Now that is really light, but I kept the run to the battery at .5 meter and it works, probably not the best, but this controller was less than $30.

Another issue with the "packaged" panels is what is the controller that is included? Are there any specifications? Read above to see what Eric found on the solarblvd unit, or rather what Eric did not find out.

It is interesting that the length of wire on the other end, that is from the solar panel to solar controller, is much more forgiving. Using a 14 AWG wire it is acceptable to exceed 30 meters. The reason is, a 60 watt solar panel is putting out about 17 volts and 3.5 amps, there is not enough loss from wire length to prevent the controller from sending the necessary 14.8 volts to the battery.

Eric
Thanks for contacting solarblvd, it was interesting to know the solar controller can be removed from the "packaged" panel(s). I would be worried about a solar controller that solarblvd folks could not define. You are wise to be looking at an alternative controller. I looked at the Sunforce and could not find any decent specifications. If I were using a water resistant box, at that price point, I would lean to the Morningstar Sunsaver SS-6 6A, 12V PWM Charge Controller. This is an established brand and solarblvd is selling it at nearly the same price as the Sunforce.

I would like to know if anyone sells the portable panels without a controller and wiring?

[thoer]

Originally Posted by fudge_brownie

If I were using a water resistant box, at that price point, I would lean to the Morningstar Sunsaver SS-6 6A, 12V PWM Charge Controller. This is an established brand and solarblvd is selling it at nearly the same price as the Sunforce.

Thanks for that Paul. With the 100w panel I would need to go with the SS-10 I guess

[Stargeezer]

RE: thoer & fudge_brownie posts...
The kits provided by these manufacturers are very popular with marine & rv users. In addition, these kits are built in such a manner that the solar panels & controllers are matched... no third party engineering required. The cables between controller and trailer I/P vary from 16' to 25' (with optional extension cables available in some cases). Recognizing that these suppliers are very reputable and their products very popular, doesn't this fly in the face of the distance limitation between controller and batteries expressed in some of the forum posts? In addition, this is "plug & play" technology, including the ability to plug directly into the trailer's seven pin (tow/trailer) connector.

The following link (Carmanah... Go Power) has a video & spec info for panels and associated controllers:
Portable Solar Kits (120, 80 & 40 watts) | GPElectric

Samlex can be found at Home & Solarland at Solarland

Comments appreciated...

Larry

[padlin]

I tried the voltage drop calculator.
Wire Resistance and Voltage Drop Calculator

Using 32' of 14/2 that the 90w kit comes with the Samlex comes in at 2.95% loss. If I read correctly under 3% is the target, if I did this right it would be in specs. I used the controllers Bulk Charge 14.4v rate and the panels max 5.16A current.

The Gopower is hard to tell as I couldn't find anything on the controller they use but they do include 16' of 12/2 and an optional 30'.